To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

@DottyHarmer

I am surprised someone in their 60s would use these terms.

On a wider level, though, I would be mindful of “let him (her) without sin cast the first stone”. I’m not a religious person but so many Bible sayings are apt! Are you entirely sure, OP, that you won’t trip up at some point in the future? The language to describe disabled people, particularly those with learning difficulties (or is it learning disabilities/different abilities/Neurologically Atypical etc etc) changes with lightning speed and if someone’s mistake is not malicious then it is not nice to hector them.

If I were to trip up, from genuine ignorance, I would hope that someone would point out my error!

I can't imagine that a retired teacher could ever have not known they those terms were ok. If she was simply being thoughtless, she would have said sorry. It's the grey remark that suggests she is racist.

Another person in the group suggested you should not have said anything in public. In this instance you should. It's not the same as correcting someone's grammar or pronunciation.

@Lucillegoldenring

Im 33 and until this thread I didn't realise that half cast was considered unPC it is what I have always said. My best friend in primary school was half white, half Indian and even she called herself half cast. Something is only racist if you have racist intentions.

Something is only racist if you have racist intentions.

This is categorically untrue and once again excusing and promoting racism.

@Lucillegoldenring

Im 33 and until this thread I didn't realise that half cast was considered unPC it is what I have always said. My best friend in primary school was half white, half Indian and even she called herself half cast. Something is only racist if you have racist intentions.

That’s surprising, are you from a very white area? Will you continue to use that term now you know it’s offensive?

I grew up in a very racially diverse area in the 80s, and 'black' was definitely the word used then. The only people I knew at that time who used any other terms were my grandparents (although it wouldn't have been intentionally racist, and even they didn't say 'coloured').

'Coloured' would have been seen as offensive in the 80s. If someone chose to use an offensive word, that's on them - I don't think it's credible to claim ignorance.

@SmileyClare

Eh? I do think it's politically correct to avoid the term "half caste". How is that me having an "attitude"?

I'm pointing out that there's a whiff of virtue signalling here. Calling out the woman's comments in front of everyone in a rather patronising manner, discussing it in private with the other group members afterwards and now starting a thread on social media faux innocently asking Was I unreasonable to say something? is almost begging to be congratulated.

Your attitude towards this kind of situation, I mean.

I really find it sad when people do this whole “ooh you just want to be told well done for being so PC” thing. Literally no one gives a shit about being the “most woke”.

If I was OP I probably would be a bit worried that I’d handled something like this wrong - or more likely that other people would think I had - if someone in the group had told me I’d upset the other person. I don’t think it’s out of line to gather opinion on the situation.

People don’t wait on tenterhooks, desperate to correct others and then get a round of applause. Despite what media like the Daily Mail would like us to believe…

Name change fail! 🤦‍♀️

Reading some comments on here, maybe I did sound a bit sanctimonious, but I didn't have time to think, I just reacted. We weren't sitting in a circle, so the whole group didn't hear, we were sitting on garden chairs in my garden. Interesting to hear people's views.

Is it an old book, and might those have been words used in it?

I know coloured was the polite word when I was younger and that black was offensive and I confess I hadn’t realised that coloured was now unacceptable until a few years ago when Benedict Cumberbatch was slated for using it. I was genuinely surprised at the outrage as I’d thought “People of colour” was ridiculous PC from the US. Cumberbatch is a bit younger than I am, for reference.

I don’t think I’ve ever used half-caste and I think I’ve only seen it in old books.

I suspect that people who use social media widely are perhaps more likely to be aware of the evolution of acceptable language than those who don’t. I think gently challenging people who get things like that wrong is the right way to go, especially if it’s the first time or out of character. Most people don’t intentionally use racist language, though obviously there are exceptions and those people should be challenged more strongly.

I think those words are more old-fashioned and perhaps used to be the acceptable version (particularly coloured) which have now come to be seen as offensive, rather than something like the n word, which has always been so. Had she used the latter, I might assume she was definitely being offensive, rather than having made an error.

So in summary, I think if people are offensive, you should point it out politely unless you are certain they are doing it intentionally. If you are rude to them in response to a genuine error, you are unlikely to persuade them to your position.

@Lucillegoldenring

Im 33 and until this thread I didn't realise that half cast was considered unPC it is what I have always said. My best friend in primary school was half white, half Indian and even she called herself half cast. Something is only racist if you have racist intentions.

That last line is not true at all. It's not acceptable for me to go around calling people with learning disabilities some of the names they used to be called, but claiming I don't have disabilist intentions. It's not OK to call people racial slurs, regardless of intention. These words hurt people. It doesn't matter what your intention is. How would they know your intention anyway?

Had a very similar convo with my 80 odd year old parents recently. They were a bit flabbergasted that coloured wasnt an ok term or half caste - they live in very white area.

I stuffed the poem half caste 15 years ago and was shocked at the language then, it wasn't words we'd ever been ok to say so it interesting to study. I can't see how 5 years prior it would have been ok!

Your friend is a prick.

She wasn't using the terminology that is considered acceptable in the new world. Does this make her racist in itself? No it doesn't. She might be, or she might be the least racist person in the group.

It's getting very annoying to see anyone not au fait with the lingo automatically deemed to be racist.

@ThisBeTheName

I am in my mid fifties. I wouldn't dream of using those terms!

They have been frowned upon for at least two decades, now.

Four decades. They haven't been acceptable since the early 70s and certainly weren't in the 80s or 90s.

My gran used to use them in the 80s because she was racist.

Literally no one gives a shit about being the “most woke”

Lol. You can't seriously believe that? Have you met anyone currently between 13 and 25?

@spotcheck

She wasn't being racist though? She used outdated terms. Is she from here?

That in itself is racist, whether intentional or not

Just to add I don't think it was wrong to pick her up on her choice of language, although doing so outside of the group would have been kinder. It's the labelling her a racist that I found of poor taste.

@Hankunamatata

Had a very similar convo with my 80 odd year old parents recently. They were a bit flabbergasted that coloured wasnt an ok term or half caste - they live in very white area.

That's pretty ignorant of them. They must have been living under a rock for the last 40 years.

I think you did the right thing. Nothing is going to change if we just allow people to spout racism or use outdated and/or offensive terms, for fear of upsetting them and being seen as impolite. Same goes for sexism and derogatory terms about the disabled.

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

20 years ago it was not PC to say coloured or half-caste. It was fine to say black.

@Clawdy

Reading some comments on here, maybe I did sound a bit sanctimonious, but I didn't have time to think, I just reacted. We weren't sitting in a circle, so the whole group didn't hear, we were sitting on garden chairs in my garden. Interesting to hear people's views.

Sorry, cross-posted.

Easy with hindsight. I guess you might not have posted here, had you been wholly confident about your own response?

I once asked the mother of a friend of my son where she was from. After a very long explanation of her background (part Jamaican and several other countries) I had to explain that actually, I could tell she was from the UK, but couldn’t place her accent. We were chatting in an international school outside the UK.

Yes, I completely agree with it makes a difference in how you said this to her.

If you were more, "Anne, we don't say those words" even though the message is completely correct, it would have been overshadowed by the "Anne, we use our inside voices" tone, assimilating a child like telling off. That got her back up, hence the very childish "black and white make grey" retort.

If you had quietly taken her aside and said "Just so you know, half cast is really outdated and offends a lot of people" then she would most likely have been mortified. But for her to have responded in such a childish manner it smacks that the overriding sentiment was you being overly sanctimonious in front of an audience.

When something is said as a genuine mistake, you should educate, not embarrass.

i must admit i had a brain freeze recently and used the word half caste when trying to remember the term mixed race,
i was talking to my family, no one pulled me up on it, i knew i was wrong.

you corrected her,
she was silly in her response, unbelievable attitude but perhaps covering up her embarrassment?

I recently heard coloured was fine now - but I couldn’t use it as it’s firmly embedded in me it’s not. Our equality officer and members of the minority network were describing themselves as coloured. Not heard anyone use the other term in more than 25 years.

'Half-caste' was considered offensive and outdated in 1997 when it was used as a term by a supply teacher at our school to describe a child. Everyone was horrified.

This is not a 'recent' change of language by any means. YANBU.