To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

Soemeone asked if she was from S Africa. She isn't. If she was, she would not refer to a black person as coloured, nor would she use the word half-caste. In SA coloured means mixed-race and is the acceptable term for mixed-race person.

@DontBeAHaterDear

I think you did the right thing. Nothing is going to change if we just allow people to spout racism or use outdated and/or offensive terms, for fear of upsetting them and being seen as impolite. Same goes for sexism and derogatory terms about the disabled.

This. Well said.

I just had a quick google of the “correct” language to use now. Well, there was absolutely no definitive guide. Especially for words to describe disability, there was mass disagreement.

So, to say, “Ooh, that’s a bit out-of-date” to a transgressor might be ok, but I would be wary of declaring what they should in fact say. You might well be showing yourself to be just as much of an offensive dinosaur.

Acceptable words change as time goes by - you cannot expect everyone to keep up.

All the black people I know do not care about this - they listen to the SPIRIT of the words, otherwise they would spend half their lives being offended. If something is said in anger and intended to offend then clearly that is not at all acceptable.

That should say “people of colour” is used regularly now, which is confusing if “coloured people” is offensive.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

It's always worth pointing out what the current acceptable terminology is, around race, and half caste is definetly no longer appropriate.

I think the current acceptable term is person of colour.

‘Person of colour’ is definitely not acceptable in our household.

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

It definitely wasn't. Maybe 50 years ago?

So, to say, “Ooh, that’s a bit out-of-date” to a transgressor might be ok, but I would be wary of declaring what they should in fact say..........especially if it was clear they had no wish to offend. I would not be telling my grandfather what he should be saying.

A few years ago a black colleague corrected me for using the term half caste. I apologised and now I use mixed race. When it crops up again I will try to remember to say mixed heritage. As far as I know we remain friends. She understood I wasn't being racist just behind the times. I recently corrected a friend for using the phrase 'He's a homo' and said it would be better to call him gay. She actually had the grace to approach me later and thank me for it!

Depending on your tone I think your friend was unreasonable to be upset. Better to be corrected among friends than strangers.

‘Person of colour’ is definitely not acceptable in our household

Sorry if my phrasing has caused any offence. I was simply using terminology I have been told (by BAME aquaintances) is the current acceptable phrasing.

I know that 'coloured' and 'half caste' are now deemed offensive, but I can see how people get out of touch tbh. I recently read that 'black' and 'mixed race' are now being phased out in favour of the terms 'person of colour' and 'person of enriched heritage'.

This puzzled me a bit as I thought the issue with 'coloured' was that it assumed a difference from the default colour of white. To quote another poster from a recent thread, it's like saying that 'fat' is offensive and we must instead use 'person of fatness'.

Oh the irony of Anne being upset and offended by how she was spoken to about how the words she uses are upsetting and offensive to others.

Fair enough Op if you are genuinely worried you handled the situation badly then I can understand why you might want to garner public opinion. Perhaps I misjudged the intention of your thread.

Its helpful to point out that some terms are offensive to use. That shouldn't have to be an uncomfortable conversation in the company of friends. (Assuming you're friends?!)

I think the woman reacted badly, that may have been embarrassment, pig headedness and her "joke" afterwards was just awful. God knows what she was thinking. I hope she's cringing about that now.
Some people just refuse to publicly acknowledge they're wrong, even though they know they are.

I don't think this needs to be blown up into a drama though. You said your piece so I would move on and assume/hope she had taken it on board.

now I use mixed race. When it crops up again I will try to remember to say mixed heritage

Why would you do that? Are you under the impression those words mean the same thing?

I've got a friend whose nearly 100, yeah good luck giving her diversity training. Christ she knew people from the Crimean war and Boer war. Society and generations progress. My friend however will not, at 99 I think it's a bit rich to tell her to change and I'm not fussed.

but what does "person of enriched heritage" actually mean....I mean what information does it actually carry?

@Mischance

Acceptable words change as time goes by - you cannot expect everyone to keep up.

All the black people I know do not care about this - they listen to the SPIRIT of the words, otherwise they would spend half their lives being offended. If something is said in anger and intended to offend then clearly that is not at all acceptable.

Yes words change. It is not hard to keep up really. I clearly remember what a person with Downs Syndrome used be called or People with Cerebral palsy. Those terms are not used now. No one calls it woke or right on when it comes to this, quite rightly, but some will make a song and dance about what to call Black and Mixed race people. Go Figure.

The Black people I know do not want these outdated terms to be used to describe them.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

‘Person of colour’ is definitely not acceptable in our household

Sorry if my phrasing has caused any offence. I was simply using terminology I have been told (by BAME aquaintances) is the current acceptable phrasing.

Sorry i should have added to my post I knew you didn’t mean it offensive as you did even say you think that term is currently ok and I totally understand that as it’s used by a certain individual in the spot light 🙄

I’m not saying all black/mixed race hate this term but our household do. Also can’t stand BAME either again everyone has a preference that’s just ours.

@emuloc precisely.

Coloured and half caste have been unacceptable for over 30 years. She's been offending people for a long time. I know what is acceptable changes regularly but just listening to the news will let you know these terms are used anymore.

Can I just say, that as an ex primary school teacher in my mid fifties, there is NO WAY she would have used half-caste in any of her school teaching career.
Stop excusing her!

Also, everyone saying that she should have been told quietly after the meeting.
NO
Why? because then the offense stands. Anyone else feeling uncomfortable or unsure in that meeting goes away still feeling uncomfortable. These things do need to be picked up in public, so that the offense is recognised and dealt with in the context in which they were said.
Obviously you can pick it up in a nice way, but it does need picking up.

@vivainsomnia

That in itself is racist, whether intentional or not This reminded me of something that happened last year in the office. One of the girls is always hot on spotting racism, was big on the black matters movement, offended that most of us didn't want to march, and pointed at one team member who has used the wrong word, telling the they were racist.

Then a few minutes later, as we were back talking about work, she used the word shit, immediately followed by 'excuse my French'...in front of a member of staff whose parents are French. When I pointed out to her that for someone so tuned to pick up racists amongst us, she might consider practicing what she was preaching. She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

I think there are a lot of double standards amongst those who are quick to point out that someone else is racist.

“I think there are a lot of double standards amongst those who are quick to point out that someone else is racist.”

Is that a fact?

This is just YOU being unable to accept what the OP has experienced so much so that you need to suggest a sub plot.

The OPs friend was OOO - the OP educated her - she didn’t like that and didn’t have the emotional capacity to reflect and acknowledge this “new” information.

She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

It's not remotely the same. "Excuse my French" isn't discriminatory or based on tropes or stereotypes which harm. It's based on a historically English failure to understand French terms and French exclamations, which in turn has evolved to be all exclamations.

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

No. This wasn't acceptable in the 2000's

It hasn't been acceptable for years. I remember being shocked when my nan used these words in the 80s.