To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

@ilovesooty what did I say that was racist?

My name is Susan, but its outdated so I like to be called Sue. People who call me Suzie are being offensive and those who say Susannah are completely disregarding my feeling.
My neighbour is also Susan and likes to be called that.
So our names are the same and our preferences are different.
How is a stranger supposed to know what offends us and what doesn't. Same with pc terms which keep changing really.
Everybody is different and you shouldnt generalise.
And with people saying what is or isnt fashionably correct, what happened to freedom of speech along the way.

And my name is Frances @Buttercup54321. Please don't call me Fanny, it might have been an okay nickname 100 years ago but it's pretty offensive now.

I actually know a little girl called Fanny. She is nine years old.
Btw I had 2 different race grandparents, so im not white!!!!@@

It's old fashioned language. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt she didn't mean offence but I think letting her know some might find those words offensive is the right thing to do

@Buttercup54321 doesn’t matter that you are ‘not white’ supporting racist language is racist.

To all those asking age; I’m 63, I’m not racist and I know how which terms are acceptable/unacceptable.

I'm Irish and didn't realise until a few years ago that half caste was racist from reading mn. In Ireland many people still say it.

@mathanxiety

The fact she has her stupid 'black and white make gray' response all lined up makes me think she knows exactly what she's saying and how offensive it is, and she believes she's doing her duty by undermining 'PC gone mad'.

Quite

''However, as I’ve said umpteen times, “calling out” and “educating” seem unpleasant - as if it’s mostly about edifying the one doing the calling out. That they want an audience witnessing how they are superior.''

This with bells on. I've often seen the ones who love to call out others over stuff do the same thing themselves after.

depends how old she is? FFS
I grew up in the 60's when these were the accepted terms, possibly through the 70's.
How much of a bubble can someone live in to not be aware of changing cultural attitudes for fifty years?

You did the right thing. If she keeps using the term half caste she will be offending lots of people. Telling her not to is doing her a favour.

@Suetully

I'm Irish and didn't realise until a few years ago that half caste was racist from reading mn. In Ireland many people still say it.

Only the racist ones

''Only the racist ones hmm''

I am not racist but I genuinely didn't know. I am in my 30s.

I wouldn't boast about that. Ignorance is no defence.

I think not knowing something is a reasonable defence. Not that a person is obliged to defend themselves from someone else's sanctimony anyway.

Claiming not to know something that everyone else knows is not a reasonable offense. No, you don;t have to defend yourself against the clear and obvious judgement of racism, you can just accept it instead.

DEFENCE

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I think not knowing something is a reasonable defence. Not that a person is obliged to defend themselves from someone else's sanctimony anyway.

Oh dear. God forbid that any of us should want to live in a country where people are not marginalised and slurred. because that's just sanctimony(!)

This 'didn't know' argument stands up to scrutiny just about as much as speeding and saying you shouldn't pay a fine because you didn't notice the road signs.

I am increasingly uncomfortable with the misuse of 'slave' on MN. Lots of posters on here decide that they do too much for their families and they describe themselves as slaves. It is very common. I now report it every time I see someone misuse it on here.

People have all sorts of random gaps in their knowledge. I expect there are things even you don't know Manifest! It's not good to go through life assuming that everyone knows what you know. And accusing them of being morally inferior if they don't. Particularly when every culture has their own accepted terms, which are subject to change and there's not even always consensus of opinion within cultures.

Actual laws are a bit different to opinions though

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Actual laws are a bit different to opinions though

Being racist is not an 'opinion' HTH

When I hear someone refer to another as 'coloured', I ask what colour - blue, green, purple? They usually say 'black' so I reply 'Just say black, you're allowed to use that term'.
Maybe she didn't realise its racist, if that's what she's been taught from a young age and never been corrected then she's probably never known any different.
And she probably felt embarrassed to be called out, which is why she went down the whole 'grey' route.

There is a difference between unintentionally saying something that is upsetting or provocative and using the same words deliberately.

In this instance, lots of us have assumed the follow up remark about a 'mix of black and white being grey' does suggest the group member did know that she had used a racist term. We have also assumed that a retired teacher of 61 (if I've remembered that properly) would have had some diversity and equality training.

Obviously the situation is different throughout the country, but in my part of south London it is incredibly common to see white people with their mixed race/mixed heritage children and grandchildren. Society has changed and so we expect that people will also have changed.

All these assumptions might be wrong but when you are from a group that has experienced racism then you tend to know the difference between an intentional and unintentional remark. Too often on these threads, the benefit of the doubt is given to the person who has said or done something racist in a way that it is rarely given to the person who has parked in front of someone's drive or who has bought a not very nice birthday present.