To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

'firmly educated' leads to people firmly telling said 'educator' to fuck off and mind their own business!

Using an outdated term does not make a person racist. Neither does not appreciating some busybody sticking their oar in and policing another adult's language.
Intent is important - Anne didn't intend to he rude but was, the OP didn't intend to he rude but also was. Neither is any better or worse than the other.
I wouldn't condemn Anne for not responding well to a public 'correction'.

Incidentally, as reported above, we have got her to accept that the word "black" is better than "coloured", and she is always kind and sweet-natured to everyone!

More than capable of change then. Shame she hadn’t deemed it worth paying attention to others who had said the same thing over the decades.

Then a few minutes later, as we were back talking about work, she used the word shit, immediately followed by 'excuse my French'...in front of a member of staff whose parents are French. When I pointed out to her that for someone so tuned to pick up racists amongst us, she might consider practicing what she was preaching. She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

It isn't the same. I have always assumed that it originates with British people in the past (usually the upper classes who'd been taught some French) using French to say things that might be either confidential or a bit dodgy, so that others, especially children, wouldn't hear. As in the expression 'pas devant les enfants'. It's not like saying 'Hop off, you Frogs!' as the Sun once notoriously did!

Lol my parents still refer to any credit card statement as the "Access bill", and use lots of phrases with outdated references referring to old money etc, call benches "forms", refer to a can of coke as a "tin of pop" etc.

It's not only their outdated racial terms.but also those racial terms persist because they actually rarely need to use them, they live in a town with no black people and in a rather white part of the country and don't personally know any black people at all, so aren't in the habit of staying up to date about terminology.

I never thought mumsnet was a meeting point for racists,but sadly you find them everywhere.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Accepted terms change all the time and this term used to be the norm - unless she deliberately meant to cause offense, then I think it's actually quite rude to correct another adults speech. Especially in public.

I hear ‘white trash’ is common parlance in the US, maybe we should export it here, after all, it’s an accepted term there.

How would like to be called white trash?

@Megameg56

I never thought mumsnet was a meeting point for racists,but sadly you find them everywhere.

Honestly the amount of people coming on defending racist language it’s just depressing.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

'firmly educated' leads to people firmly telling said 'educator' to fuck off and mind their own business!

Using an outdated term does not make a person racist. Neither does not appreciating some busybody sticking their oar in and policing another adult's language.
Intent is important - Anne didn't intend to he rude but was, the OP didn't intend to he rude but also was. Neither is any better or worse than the other.
I wouldn't condemn Anne for not responding well to a public 'correction'.

If somebody uses an offensive term they should be advised so in public. Otherwise everyone who has heard it and said nothing is complicit and perpetuating an outdated term.

I think it’s really important to have these conversations. Feeling like you can’t challenge others because it might offend them is part of the problem. We HAVE to if we have any hope of reducing (or better still eliminating)systemic racism. If I say something that could offend someone or leave someone feeling ‘othered’ then I’d want to know. Language matters.

Meraas was 'white trash' ever an accepted term, without intent to cause offense? Common parlance and accepted term aren't really the same thing
The two terms aren't comparable.

Give it a rest and stop being so sensitive

Are you entirely sure, OP, that you won’t trip up at some point in the future? The language to describe disabled people, particularly those with learning difficulties (or is it learning disabilities/different abilities/Neurologically Atypical etc etc) changes with lightning speed and if someone’s mistake is not malicious then it is not nice to hector them

Any white person can and probably has been racist at some point, which is why we all need to examine what we say and do and hold each other accountable.

A lot of white people are still very arrogant.

The most important thing is to listen to the voice of people of colour and amplify them.

@Blossomtoes, considered rude by who? Seriously, who told you that using the term black to describe black people is/was "rude"? I'm going to guess no black person.

@lovescaca

Give it a rest and stop being so sensitive

Good grief. Mumsnet has many racists but few are as blatant as that.

I am very happy to listen to people of colour - or disabled people - and of course use the term they are most comfortable with.

What I have said continually on this thread is that I don’t much care for those with no connection whatsoever appointing themselves the language police, “calling out” and “educating” people, and in many cases getting it wrong anyway!

Generally those terms are used in ignorance rather than to cause deliberate offense, but they can offend the people being described.
My black friends describe themselves as black (friends aged 35-55) but I got talking to someone last week who was in his 60s and at one point he described himself as 'coloured'.
By the way your friend reacted I would say that she knew she was in the wrong but for whatever reason was trying to justify the terminology she used.

@DottyHarmer

I am very happy to listen to people of colour - or disabled people - and of course use the term they are most comfortable with.

What I have said continually on this thread is that I don’t much care for those with no connection whatsoever appointing themselves the language police, “calling out” and “educating” people, and in many cases getting it wrong anyway!

I don't disagree with this. But I think the op was right to call this person out.

I am very happy to listen to people of colour - or disabled people - and of course use the term they are most comfortable with

And if a "person of colour" asks you to stop using that term, will you?

@ManifestDestinee, great question.

Yes, without question, of course

Yes, without question, of course confused

Ok, and replace it with what?

@Lostmarbles2021I couldn't agree more

DottyHarmer

I am very happy to listen to people of colour - or disabled people - and of course use the term they are most comfortable with.

I believe that we ALL have a responsibility to challenge systemic racism. We ALL need to be allies to those who, for whatever reason, are discriminated against, especially racism, given the white west role in slavery. The shame of that history should motivate us to do everything in our power to put right the dreadful atrocities that occurred and the endemic racism that followed. If this means challenging language and causing a little social discomfort then that’s a terribly small and insignificant thing in comparison, surely?

What I have said continually on this thread is that I don’t much care for those with no connection whatsoever appointing themselves the language police, “calling out” and “educating” people, and in many cases getting it wrong anyway!

First of all, I'm not sure anyone has appointed themselves anything...not OP in this issue. There's simple correction and there's judgement.

Secondly, I disagree with you that it should only takes those in the category to correct. This is why many still say ignorant things within their group of friends or families because no one in that category is around (to correct them) so they don't have to change what they say. That's what you're saying then.

So if you were having a conversation with your friend or someone you know and she mentioned someone being sp*tic or a ret**d, you won't tell her those words aren't considered acceptable anymore incase she didn't know? You'd just shrug and carry on knowing full well they aren't but hey, you're not disabled so it's not your business. You'd leave her in her ignorance till she meets someone with a disability who will correct her? Who knows when that would be and how many people she'd hurt while unknowingly saying something you could have simply corrected.

Let's apply that to every situation then. Let's all do nothing in any situation and wait for only those it affects to change/correct. Well done, good citizen.