To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

It's always been "allowed" to say black

It was considered the height of rudeness when I was a child. 🤷‍♀️

@DottyHarmer

I am certainly not defending Anne’s language. But - I take issue with the self-appointed “calling outers” and “educators”.

I wish a spike would sear up someone’s bottom every time they even think about using the phrases. It’s one thing to have a quiet word if you think - nay, know - someone has inadvertently used an offensive term (if they’ve done it on purpose, why bother as they’re hardly going to welcome a reprimand) but quite another to be all class monitor and report a mistake, basking in one’s own righteousness. Ugh.

Another 'being called racist is worse than actually being racist'.

@longerevenings

who gets to decide?

The people you are describing get to decide.
It really is that simple.
However illogical you personally find some of the decisions they aren't your decisions to make.

This can't be right. You can't assume that all people from a particular racial/ethnic demographic have a hive mind and think the same thing. How would you discover what the collective opinion is?

Further back up the thread there was an anecdotal report of someone feeling offended by the term "mixed-race". I know that I've been very careful of terminology with friends from East Asia and avoided the word "oriental", but been told that's the word they would use for themselves.

@Blossomtoes

It's always been "allowed" to say black

It was considered the height of rudeness when I was a child. 🤷‍♀️

My mother has only recently and reluctantly been persuaded to refer to people she thinks of as "coloured" as "black". For her and people of her demographic "coloured" is the polite and considerate word, and "black" has a hint of rudeness about it.

The people you are describing get to decide

We've already been told on this thread that mixed race people shouldn't call themselves mixed race because its offensive, so we should say mixed heritage, which doesn't mean at all the same thing.
We also know that people choose many different things to describe themselves and what one person wants, another find offensive.

Let's not pretend there is anything simple about it.

Who gets to decide? Because as so many people have said in this thread, if you use the un-PC term, people jump on you and for the older generation - my parents for example - they mean no harm, it is just they can't keep up with what is right and what is wrong.

As I said ealier today, I had to educate my Dad to use BAME a few months ago and then shortly afterwards a government report on race stated that term shouldn't be used anymore. So now I'm thinking: do I go back and tell him that? or what?

I think you are being slightly disingenuous, @patkinney. Using BAME is world away from saying "coloured". I don't see any of the older generation "mistakenly" still saying "Peace out" or "Can you dig it?" or using any other language from the era it was last ok to use coloured...

Nobody is this obtuse.

Quite, @Mushtullo.

My mum also says 'coloureds'

Awful and I pull her up on it every time and tell her it's unacceptable and not what anyone should be saying in 2021!

I agree there isn't an absolute consensus but there are general consensus for individual countries.
In addition to that any specific individual may tell you that they don't like a specific descriptor.
Following those two guidelines you should be okay.

So in the USA where I live at the moment person of color is fine as a descriptor colored isn't.
Those are the current societal rules, it isn't that hard to follow them.

Language changes, I wouldn't be surprised if the terms change over time but that is alright.

There can be conflict if one generation reclaims a word that an older generation still regards as stigmatizing, such as the word queer.
But in OPs case this language hasn't been acceptable for decades.

Generally listening to how individuals describe themselves gives you a steer alongside paying attention to more formal news sources.

It is patronising to think anybody over 80 cant adjust their vocabulary.People using those outdated descriptions have to be "gently" but firmly educated.

It was considered the height of rudeness when I was a child.

It’s been fine for many decades. What was considered wrong was to refer to anyone who wasn’t white, as black. Or to refer to people as Blacks. But as a description for a person who was black, it hasn’t been “the height of rudeness” for a very, very long time (if it ever really was)

I am happy to learn (dd kindly told me not to use the smiley emoji or a full stop!) and certainly will respect the wishes of a person “at the coal face” so to speak, whether the subject may be race, disability or gender.

However, I am less inclined to appreciate being reprimanded by some person who has no connection whatsoever and has simply decided by virtue of, well, nothing , that they get to dictate what terms are acceptable.

@Megameg56 - “firmly educated” ? Exactly my point. Who on earth are you to appoint yourself “educator”?

However, I am less inclined to appreciate being reprimanded by some person who has no connection whatsoever and has simply decided by virtue of, well, nothing , that they get to dictate what terms are acceptable.

Which isn’t what happens.

Isn’t it? Actually of all my friends I have never had cause to describe anyone - so the fact that they are of whatever race/heritage is never given a name.

If I were at a book group and someone told me off for using the wrong descriptor (and it was a very recent change) if they had no connection to the race concerned I’d think they were a puffed-up prat.

@80sPadme @QueenAdreena A lot of people do day mixed race but to me it implies that we are all different races when in actuality it's inaccurate as we are all one race with different ethnicities and heritages.

Coloured and half caste definitely are not okay. I also dislike person of colour as it implies black and brown/beige skin tones are the only colours when white people are beige/pink toned - very inaccurate as well. Half caste is well known as derogatory.

BAME lumps everyone non white into a big pile however is not incorrect in what it means as such, just vague and not that useful.

I personally refer to myself as mixed ethnicity. However language may change again and I may have a better way to describe myself.

I think there's a big difference between what was considered "acceptable" (I.e. very pc) when people in their 70s and 80s were growing up, and what commonly used/normal and not considered rude by white people, especially those who lived in very white communities with little exposure to other races. My parents are late 60s/early 70s and were definitely brought up saying "coloured" and "half caste", they try to remember to say black & mixed race now but regularly slip up when only around family and not on their guard.

It's quite hard to shake off the ingrained language of your youth. I live a different part of the country to where I grew up and DH is constantly laughing at me as I use a few words for things that are specifically local to where I grew up. I try to drop the habit but its hard!

Yanbu to gently remind that those terms are outdated and might cause offense, but her response was clearly rude.

Watch out, @GalaxyGirl24 , some know-all will come along and tell you you’re describing yourself all wrong and need to be educated…. Because of course they know better ….

I'm mixed race I'd give you the eye if you said mixed heritage or the worse one of all 'person of colour' 😳 makes me think of a rainbow.

some know-all will come along and tell you you’re describing yourself all wrong and need to be educated…. Because of course they know better ….

Further perpetuating the myth that language evolved because of something other than people who are actually affected by it standing up for how they want to be treated.

It's quite hard to shake off the ingrained language of your youth

I guarantee there are words/phrases from your parents’ youth they no longer use today. Why is it only when it comes to that pesky racist language that the older generations struggle?

@BoredZelda
Why is it only when it comes to that pesky racist language that the older generations struggle?

Sorry, you keep saying this, but it's rubbish!

My mother still call calls women "ladies", listens to the wireless, refers to most of her female friends by their maiden names, in fact still uses the expression "maiden names". I grew up in the 1980s, but am fully versed in pounds, shillings and pence because her mother still converted everything back into a currency which had been dead for over a decade. It's not all about racism.

Why is it only when it comes to that pesky racist language that the older generations struggle?

This has reminded me of my (African) aunt who used to be a care worker in an old people's home and would often joke that some of their residents could have entirely forgotten the names of their children but the n-word remained permanently engrained in their minds

My mother still call calls women "ladies", listens to the wireless, refers to most of her female friends by their maiden names, in fact still uses the expression "maiden names". I grew up in the 1980s, but am fully versed in pounds, shillings and pence because her mother still converted everything back into a currency which had been dead for over a decade. It's not all about racism.

This would only be relevant if her mother was still converting to shillings 40 years later. Or if your mother was still doing it. A decade is nothing, I’m talking about actual societal changes, which are more than 4 decades in the making, and yet somehow have passed people by completely. Ladies is still well in common usage, as is “maiden name” so I’m not sure why you think this is an example of anything.

@BoredZelda

My mother still call calls women "ladies", listens to the wireless, refers to most of her female friends by their maiden names, in fact still uses the expression "maiden names". I grew up in the 1980s, but am fully versed in pounds, shillings and pence because her mother still converted everything back into a currency which had been dead for over a decade. It's not all about racism.

This would only be relevant if her mother was still converting to shillings 40 years later. Or if your mother was still doing it. A decade is nothing, I’m talking about actual societal changes, which are more than 4 decades in the making, and yet somehow have passed people by completely. Ladies is still well in common usage, as is “maiden name” so I’m not sure why you think this is an example of anything.

I'm pretty sure you don't want the full list of changes which have passed her by! She still uses feet and inches, never understood the EU, thinks mothers should ideally be at home, won't have a mobile, disapproves of the internet and anything to do with banking beyond cash and the writing of cheques. If anyone is being disingenuous about the tendency of many people to stop engaging with change as they age ...

(Incidentally, as reported above, we have got her to accept that the word "black" is better than "coloured", and she is always kind and sweet-natured to everyone!)