To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

@Lostmarbles2021

I think it’s really important to have these conversations. Feeling like you can’t challenge others because it might offend them is part of the problem. We HAVE to if we have any hope of reducing (or better still eliminating)systemic racism. If I say something that could offend someone or leave someone feeling ‘othered’ then I’d want to know. Language matters.

This. I agree. The people who stand by quietly saying nothing, all the while knowing something is not right, are part of the problem imo.

@HereForThis

What I have said continually on this thread is that I don’t much care for those with no connection whatsoever appointing themselves the language police, “calling out” and “educating” people, and in many cases getting it wrong anyway!

First of all, I'm not sure anyone has appointed themselves anything...not OP in this issue. There's simple correction and there's judgement.

Secondly, I disagree with you that it should only takes those in the category to correct. This is why many still say ignorant things within their group of friends or families because no one in that category is around (to correct them) so they don't have to change what they say. That's what you're saying then.

So if you were having a conversation with your friend or someone you know and she mentioned someone being sp*tic or a ret**d, you won't tell her those words aren't considered acceptable anymore incase she didn't know? You'd just shrug and carry on knowing full well they aren't but hey, you're not disabled so it's not your business. You'd leave her in her ignorance till she meets someone with a disability who will correct her? Who knows when that would be and how many people she'd hurt while unknowingly saying something you could have simply corrected.

Let's apply that to every situation then. Let's all do nothing in any situation and wait for only those it affects to change/correct. Well done, good citizen.

Very well said.

If someone used a nasty term, then I would frown or tell them (if I knew them) that that was not on. Or that, if they had just made a mistake, that “x” is considered insulting now.

However, as I’ve said umpteen times, “calling out” and “educating” seem unpleasant - as if it’s mostly about edifying the one doing the calling out. That they want an audience witnessing how they are superior.

I certainly didn't "want an audience witnessing" me being "superior", that was the last thing I wanted. I said it quietly, but quickly as the first thing that came into my head, and half the group ( there are eight of us) weren't listening anyway.

However, as I’ve said umpteen times, “calling out” and “educating” seem unpleasant - as if it’s mostly about edifying the one doing the calling out. That they want an audience witnessing how they are superior.

This is up for interpretation and says more about the person who interprets it as such. People usually feel this way if they feel entitled or don't think the person correcting them should do so.

What you just wrote that you'd say also sounds like what many would also refer to as "calling out" or "educating". There's no difference between that and what OP did or what most people do.

Infact yours sound rather harsh compared to what OP said. Yet you don't consider it calling out or making judgements.

DottyHarmer

If someone used a nasty term, then I would frown or tell them (if I knew them) that that was not on. Or that, if they had just made a mistake, that “x” is considered insulting now.

However, as I’ve said umpteen times, “calling out” and “educating” seem unpleasant - as if it’s mostly about edifying the one doing the calling out. That they want an audience witnessing how they are superior.

It’s partly the fear of being seen like this that makes it hard to do (will people think I’m patronising them? Will they think I’m on my ‘high horse’? Etc), but still we NEED to do it. It doesn’t have to be done in a superior or demeaning manner. It can be done respectfully. But we do need to educate ourselves and others. We have to or it will never change.

If we are in more fear of appearing a certain way or offending someone who is continuing to use racist language, than we are of the endemic and systemic racism that disadvantages huge numbers of of our fellow humans, then I feel our priorities are wrong.

[quote skippy67]@Blossomtoes, considered rude by who? Seriously, who told you that using the term black to describe black people is/was "rude"? I'm going to guess no black person.[/quote]
I’m old. Clearly my memory goes back a long way further than yours. It was the way language was in the late 50s. I was five before I even saw a black person. The past is a different country.

If we are in more fear of appearing a certain way or offending someone who is continuing to use racist language, than we are of the endemic and systemic racism that disadvantages huge numbers of of our fellow humans, then I feel our priorities are wrong

100% - it’s our job to get over any minor discomfort we have in ourselves in stepping up and being assertive in order to spare others the huge pain of offensive and racist hurt down the line.

You can assume (initially) that the “offender” is inadvertently ignorant and you are doing them a favour if that you need that motivation to act. Bit like training your toddler to have table manners - doesn’t have to be done with aggression or judgement - but it has to be done.

If though the intent is obvious or they come back like the OPs friend - then you need a different approach.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

'firmly educated' leads to people firmly telling said 'educator' to fuck off and mind their own business!

Using an outdated term does not make a person racist. Neither does not appreciating some busybody sticking their oar in and policing another adult's language.
Intent is important - Anne didn't intend to he rude but was, the OP didn't intend to he rude but also was. Neither is any better or worse than the other.
I wouldn't condemn Anne for not responding well to a public 'correction'.

Anne was a teacher so must have known that terms like coloured weren't acceptable decades ago. I assume it would be a serious incident if she was heard using terms like that in her professional life.

Politely sitting there and not correcting unacceptable language until you can discreetly say something is a form of acceptance.

OP has said that it wasn't a public attack (they were sat away from the group) that the whole group heard yet some people on here seem determined to believe that Anne simply didn't know and that the OP was trying to humiliate her for the sake of it.

I have been in situation where people were told that a term wasn't acceptable and they apologize, look embarrassed at making such a mistake and correct what they were saying. They don't make excuses like it was acceptable to say what they said when they were growing up because they are good people who aren't racist, homophobic etc

Politely sitting there and not correcting unacceptable language until you can discreetly say something is a form of acceptance.

In your opinion. In mine it's just good manners not to correct another adults' language, especially in public.
If Anne had been deliberately nasty - name calling for example, then that's entirely different imo. She wasn't using a nasty term, whose only purpose is to offend, she used a term which most people consider outdated, but was previously considered okay. It's apparent from this thread that there is no absolute consensus on 'appropriate' - there are people here or married to people about whom the term would be used who 'don't' feel offended by it, although others do, which is partly why it's not a good idea to get into correcting people.
I think she reacted badly because someone she barely knows thought it was okay to publicly correct her.

In mine it's just good manners not to correct another adults' language, especially in public.

Or maybe the shame of being a racist in public might actually stop her doing it the next time?

Age is no excuse for ignorance. My Gran knows coloured isn’t acceptable, she never even used the term when it was banded around in the 50/60/70s because she was called coloured and also ‘darky’ at school and neither felt very good. She isn’t black fwiw but is a French Jewish immigrant so has dark features. It also isn’t ‘PC’ not to be a racist twat.

I had to have the same conversation with my 82 year old Mum just a few days ago. When I suggested that the term ‘coloured’ is now considered offensive she went off on one, ranting about political correctness. I replied with the same thing I always say in these situations: the sad thing about political correctness is that it’s needed at all - if human beings were simply kind, polite and thoughtful towards one another, there would be no need for such guidance.

If she's my age (50+) then she's using words that were accepted around 35+ years ago. Those are the words that I was told to use back then.

You didn't need to be rude to her. You could simply have taken her aside just to let her know the currently accepted terminology and go from there.

I'm not going to condemn someone just for being a bit behind the times.

@Hemingwaycat

Age is no excuse for ignorance. My Gran knows coloured isn’t acceptable, she never even used the term when it was banded around in the 50/60/70s because she was called coloured and also ‘darky’ at school and neither felt very good. She isn’t black fwiw but is a French Jewish immigrant so has dark features. It also isn’t ‘PC’ not to be a racist twat.

Quite. My grandmother did struggle at first with changing her language to use black rather than coloured as black was considered offensive for most of her life but she would be 125 this year...

There isn't really any excuse for anyone under that age. They have had have had over half a century to learn that coloured isn't acceptable.

If she's my age (50+) then she's using words that were accepted around 35+ years ago. Those are the words that I was told to use back then.

Maybe (just) when you were a child, @Clydesider but by the time you were a teenager/young adult, they were offensive.

"Someone she barely knows" - I've known her for about twenty years, when her husband was very ill last year, we met for coffee every week so she could have a break. I would never intentionally hurt her, and I think she knows that.

Apologies OP, I did think she was an acquaintance more than a friend.

Well as long as we also don't correct misogynistic words in public. We wait till we can quietly, casually, breezily, playfully, walk-on-egg shells so we don't make anyone feel like a child.

Some people on here must not have been kindly corrected at all or past the age of 8 or something. Something triggers what seems to be a visceral reaction to simple or even gentle correction, blowing it out of proportion. Seems some of the entitlement we witness comes from there.

I dont think there was anything particularly offensive in the terms used, just thst they are not the most up-to-date politicaly correct versrions. The term "half-caste" can cause offense because of its lunks with rhe caste system, but often people don't realise that and think that they are saying "half-cast" which is more forgiveable. I dont see what's offensive about saying "coloured" seeing how people in the US seem to like using "people of colour" to describe black and/or asian people.

I can't get too upset by people not keeping up with terminology. When I was young words like handicapped and spastic were used to describe people with disabilities/cerebral palsy. Now those words have been declared offensive, but not all older people have kept up with the parlance. If the woman wasn't saying anything offensive about black/mixed-race people but just using the "wrong" words then I can see how she would be upset that you implied she was racist.

Something about the words 'gentle correction' gives me the chills!
Entitlement is a funny thing. Some people feel that their own perceptions are so important that it entitles them to police the words/behaviour of others, even though there's no universal agreement on what is/isn't offensive and any consensus is subject to change. Others take a more 'you do you' approach and feel entitled to go about their business without someone else policing their choices.
Clearly I'm in the MYOB camp when people say what others perceive to be the wrong thing, if their intention isn't to deliberately insult.

I started using the words "gentle correction" or "simple correction" after it became obvious that the word 'correction' is interpreted as 'attack' by some people. But it seems 'gentle correction' may also be seen as problematic. It's ironic, isn't it - that some people who have issues with being corrected seem to find issues with other people's choice of words? Ho-hum.

I never said you couldn't use those words though Here, which is the difference.
But this does nicely illustrate that it can be very hard to choose words that don't offend anyone and the difficulty around policing other people's.

The fact she has her stupid 'black and white make gray' response all lined up makes me think she knows exactly what she's saying and how offensive it is, and she believes she's doing her duty by undermining 'PC gone mad'.