To not want an awake child around at 11pm when I'm on holiday

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

NC'd for this.

On holiday in a cottage with a friend and we each have 2 kids - mine are 5 & 9 and hers are 5 & 8. I haven't seen this friend in ages as I moved away from my town a few years ago, then COVID happened so this was a great chance to catch up and ours kids are all get on very well. We said loads beforehand that we couldn't wait to talk about what's going in our lives - her with a new job and home, me in a new relationship etc. We stocked up on wine for the holiday as we said we would put the kids to bed and wile away the hours on our balcony (we've been away before and this is something of a tradition). We also wanted to catch up on the same TV show we are watching and watch new episodes together as we don't know anyone else who watches this show.

When we got here we decided 8.30 was a reasonable bedtime for the kids, and my 2 and her youngest have gone down no problem every night after busy days. But We've been here 4 nights and every single night her 8yo refuses to sleep so she brings her downstairs to spend the night with us. Meaning the dynamic COMPLETELY changes, rather than playing poker like we usually do, we have to play Dobble. And instead of watching our TV show (which wouldn't be appropriate with an 8yo around), my friend puts Horrid Henry on.

The talk is PG - no catching up the way we wanted has been done - and, at the risk of sounding nasty, her 8yo has turned into quite an obnoxious little thing. I've spent the last 4 evenings hearing from the 8yo herself about how amazing she is in school, better than all the other kids and she is 'top of the class' (I am a teacher, there is no such thing), how Isabella is rubbish at swimming and she could swim better than her when she was only 4, how she drew a better picture today than my DD, how everyone wants to be her friends and she only picks the most popular girls to be friends with and not the others etc. She also says pretty rude things like "Why do you eat your toast whole, that's a stupid way to eat it, you should cut it up". I do tell her not to be so rude and comment on what people eat.

My friend just gazes at her starry eyed, says nothing when she's rude and makes an extremely feeble effort to put her to bed. It usually starts with her tucking her in at8.30, then at about 9 her DD comes down saying she can't sleep then she takes her back upstairs, before coming back down saying like "oh dear, Alyssa wants to stay up with us, I said that's fine for a few minutes". Then at 11pm they both go up together.

AIBU to be annoyed that I'm spending my holidays nights playing a children's game, the conversation centring around how amazing a rude 8yo is and watching cartoons. It's 11.30pm now, I'm alone downstairs nursing the rest of the wine and feeling a bit sorry for myself!

To make matters worse, my friend said tonight in front of her DD "Alyssa says everyone woke her up this morning making noise so in the morning if she's still asleep everyone will have to be extra quiet". Alyssa was still in bed today at 9.30am!! My kids, us adults and my friend's youngest, are up at 7am. I'm not tiptoeing around just because she can't put her DD to bed on time! I did say well if you went to bed when your mummy told you you would be up at the same time as everyone else.

@a8mint

Of course because the little ones will happily go to bed when everyone else is having such fun?! confused Nope that way you end up with a house full of screaming, over tired kids at 11pm with twice the noise, commotion and mess, dobble and Horrid Henry will seem tame in comparison. Don't do it op. Don't even think about doing it!

A 5 year old and a 9 year old shouldn't have or expect to have the same bedtime!

Well mine got 🤷‍♀️ sorry for giving them a healthy routine 🤣🤣

You try enforcing that on holiday!! Good luck a8mint

Everyone agrees the world is in trouble and needs creative, resilient genius (genii?) to rescue the mundane from environmental and societal collapse and usher in the age of Aquarius and enlightenment. It's a good thing there will be an army of such gently-parented, gifted children reaching their teens and twenties and thirties to give ordinary folk the benefit of their talents and make their parents proud and for those parents to be able to tell everyone they told you so.

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars…

When it's time for the special one to go to back school next week, her mother is going to have a nightmare on her hands.

She WILL reap what she sews.

@a8mint

Of course because the little ones will happily go to bed when everyone else is having such fun?! confused Nope that way you end up with a house full of screaming, over tired kids at 11pm with twice the noise, commotion and mess, dobble and Horrid Henry will seem tame in comparison. Don't do it op. Don't even think about doing it!

A 5 year old and a 9 year old shouldn't have or expect to have the same bedtime!

I never get why parents do separate bedtimes. I am 2 years older than my sister and we always had to go to our bedrooms at the same time, and then I guess as I got older I was allowed to read or whatever for a bit longer.

Essentially though, we had to be in our bedrooms and stay there from the same time as each other. I don't know why you'd want anything other than that, as the parent?

😁 Baffles me - haven’t the gentle parents lived on this earth? A parents job is to prepare your kid for life and sometimes life isn’t easy and fitting in / being resilient/ getting on with stuff and getting on with other people is absolutely key. You simply cannot gain those skills if you are raised as a little emperor / empress. It’s ding then no favours at all.

My DC are 4 years apart and go to bed around the same time. DD gets to sit up quietly reading or colouring in her room while I put DS to bed, she gets an extra half hour or so before it's lights out for her too.

I expect OP, if you didn't know it before you will definitely now know your friend has got some serious double-standards.

I get why people say that's an early bedtime for a 9 year old and especially on holiday, personally I'd let mine stay in their room on the iPad as long as they understood no getting out of bed - mother of the year here yes I know.

But I think the issue is the the friend agreed to do early nights so they could socialise in the evening, why say it and not even try to follow through or have a word and say omg A is a nightmare I don't know what to do - it's like the conversation never happened and the issue is not being addressed, that for me would be frustrating thing.

@a8mint

YANBU, but 8.30 is a mighty early bedtime for a 9 year old on holiday. I dont think you can do anything about her staying up if she isnt your kid, but don't entertain her!

But different people have different routines. It may be early for your child but not for everyone. Some children and adult like to have a wind down time in their rooms before going to sleep. My DS takes after me and likes to read for a while in bed, so at that age 8.30 would not have been a hardship.

Why spend years teaching children the world doesn't revolve around them when you can just write a quick letter to the IOC asking them to ban diving because Alyssa is afraid of heights?

My closest sibling (1 year difference) and I always had a different bedtime from our younger siblings (3 & 4 year difference). The younger two would go to bed and then we would be able to watch TV shows like Friends which were on later and suitable for 9/10 yos but not my littler siblings. It would also give us some time with our parents without the little ones demanding their attention. Children of different ages have different needs so it’s not completely crazy to treat them differently. Obviously each family should do what works for them but surely it’s not hard to understand why a family might find reasons to let an older child stay up later than a much younger one.

As for all the snidey comments around gentle parenting, there is nothing wrong with gentle parenting in itself and many of the ‘examples’ given here aren’t a true reflection of gentle parenting but are an extreme end of it where posters citing the use of gentle parenting when what they’re doing is far from it. This would be akin to giving examples of parents screaming in their children’s faces or smacking etc as examples of ‘do as you’re told’ parenting and saying how awful it is as a form of parenting when of course extreme levels of ‘discipline’ aren’t what posters here are condoning. It’s easy to laugh and judge the parenting of others but truth is most parents are trying their best and no parent will get everything, be it bedtime or behaviour or food or homework etc, 100% right.

OP, no doubt your friend has seen things in your parenting that she disagrees with but hopefully she hasn’t been so disrespectful as to post about it for quick laughs on another forum. Your initial reason for starting the thread was reasonable but the continued unpicking of her children’s behaviour and her responses have started to come across as mean considering this is presumably a close friend of yours.

Essentially though, we had to be in our bedrooms and stay there from the same time as each other. I don't know why you'd want anything other than that, as the parent?
Because maybe some parents take on board that its not all about them!
There is a big difference between parenting and teaching especially as children get older. Building the foundations of a relationship where you listen and explain to children and give them a say is so important to their future ability to make good decisions. My kids are all 16+ now and as they've become teens and young adults , you see teh desperate floundering of parents who find the 'do as your told' approach no longer works. . The kid kicks back because its all he knows how to do. He hasn't had the experience of having his voice heard , open communication, explanation and negotiation with his parents. My dd said the other day, how she was sad when her friend told her she would go to a friend to talk about a problem rather than her parents.

OP, no doubt your friend has seen things in your parenting that she disagrees with but hopefully she hasn’t been so disrespectful as to post about it for quick laughs on another forum. Your initial reason for starting the thread was reasonable but the continued unpicking of her children’s behaviour and her responses have started to come across as mean considering this is presumably a close friend of yours.

OP's made it plain that he friend is not on MN, so it's not mean to vent here - better than biting heads off in real life.
It's also not disrespectful to be aghast at how Alyssa's mother favours her over her smaller sibling, panders to her whims, encourages her showing-off, & teaches her nothing about interacting nicely with others.

I feel sorry for Alyssa. She's going to be an unhappy teenager & probably young adult too, as her mother is simply not giving her basic social life skills.

@a8mint

Essentially though, we had to be in our bedrooms and stay there from the same time as each other. I don't know why you'd want anything other than that, as the parent? Because maybe some parents take on board that its not all about them! There is a big difference between parenting and teaching especially as children get older. Building the foundations of a relationship where you listen and explain to children and give them a say is so important to their future ability to make good decisions. My kids are all 16+ now and as they've become teens and young adults , you see teh desperate floundering of parents who find the 'do as your told' approach no longer works. . The kid kicks back because its all he knows how to do. He hasn't had the experience of having his voice heard , open communication, explanation and negotiation with his parents. My dd said the other day, how she was sad when her friend told her she would go to a friend to talk about a problem rather than her parents.

My parents definitely didn't think it was 'all about them'!! But neither was it all about myself and my sister. After long days revolving around caring for us, yes they probably did want us upstairs and out of their hair both at the same time, rather than me still lingering around with them for most of their evening and worrying about what I might be seeing and hearing on the TV (back in the days when it was just Channels 1-5 so not many options to switch over to).

I don't remember ever wanting to be back downstairs tbh. We would go up to bed and then I'd be able to read or write or draw (or whatever) in my room if I chose, and I could go to sleep when I wanted as long as not too late.

This thread reminds me of a friend of mine

Her child was punching. Head butting. Pinching. Scratching my friend in the throat. For a good 45 mins. He’s 4! She just let it happen. Because he wanted to swim in the pool on his own and some kids came in.

When he’d finished beating my friend to a pulp. He got put into the swimming pool and when other children went to go in. My friend said oh you couldn’t just wait could you. He wants to swim on his own. What astounded me even more was every member of the public went. Oh. Ok!!!

I tried so hard to keep my mouth shut. Didn’t work.

OP's made it plain that he friend is not on MN, so it's not mean to vent here - better than biting heads off in real life.

So if somebody is never going to know is it okay to gossip and laugh about close friends behind their backs? I would be hurt if I found out a good friend was talking about me and my children in this way. I didn’t realise something was only wrong if you got caught! Surely it is human decency not to be so disrespectful as to publicly laugh at and ridicule good friends regardless of whether they will ever find out. Absolutely the initial post venting about the issue from the OP was reasonable but it now feels like she is more focused on regaling other posters on here with more and more examples just for the responses and to keep the thread and attention going than to genuinely vent.

It's also not disrespectful to be aghast at how Alyssa's mother favours her over her smaller sibling, panders to her whims, encourages her showing-off, & teaches her nothing about interacting nicely with others.

I feel sorry for Alyssa. She's going to be an unhappy teenager & probably young adult too, as her mother is simply not giving her basic social life skills.

Most of this is conjecture. You have never seen the child or how she is parented, you have a couple of anecdotes from OP based on how the child has been on a holiday so how can you possibly jump to conclusions about what kind of teen/ young adult this person will be? Presumably OP knows her friend quite well, enough to develop a friendship close enough that they are holidaying together, so it seems unlikely that the friend is truly such an awful parent of Alyssa such an awful brat or she’d have realised this long ago and never have agreed to the holiday. I’m not saying the few examples of patenting OP has shared paint the friend or Alyssa in the best light but no doubt there will be other positive examples of the friend and daughter she’s decided not to share as they won’t be as entertaining and also I daresay there are aspects of OPs parenting that the friend and other posters here would disagree with.

Other people’s kids are definitely annoying a lot of the time and other parents often do things in ways we wouldn’t choose ourselves and it’s totally okay to sometimes need a bit of a vent but it feels like this thread has started to go beyond that and to be really quite mean about a person the OP presumably considers a friend. As I said, I would be very hurt to know any of my friends were speaking about me in this way and I don’t think the fact the friend is unlikely to see it means it’s automatically fine.

You are going to get PA vibes all day about everything, and later Alyssa will magically appear as she is struggling to get over the fact your child actually went ON the climbing wall

This. She'll absolutely have to sit up with mummy tonight to get over the trauma.

Frangipani I wouldn't have been able to resist commenting on how great DS is at climbing I'm not petty in the slightest

I’m not saying the few examples of patenting OP has shared paint the friend or Alyssa in the best light but no doubt there will be other positive examples of the friend and daughter she’s decided not to share as they won’t be as entertaining

Er ... as you say, @BillyIsMyBunny ... Most of this is conjecture.

You accuse PP (me) of cherry-picking - then cherry-pick from your own invented scenarios!

@BillyIsMyBunny, totally agree, this thread is just completely reinforcing my desire to never want to go away with another family because each has their own way of doing things and it just leads to aggravation. Initially I felt sorry for the OP but now I feel it’s the friend who has really drawn the short straw in going away with someone who is acting like such a judgemental, two-faced bee-atch. It’s certainly not an unreasonable viewpoint that 8.30 is very early for 8/9 year olds on holiday, the OP is not wrong for preferring an earlier bedtime but neither is she morally superior. A holiday 7am start time either for anything other than babies/toddlers sounds awful to me too. If it were me, I would put the 5 year olds down and let the 8/9 year olds watch horrid Henry on the iPad in their own room, then lights out 9.30/10. But I think for everyone’s sake - including the poor bitched about friend - don’t go on holiday together again!

Amazed that you have put up with this op. She sounds like such a horrible brat. Absolute brat. I really wouldn't have time for that. If she started bragging to me I would firmly put her in her place. Your friend is incredibly obnoxious, she clearly knew what a pain her daughter is and thinks not much of inflicting her horrid behavior on everyone.

@Nocutenamesleft

This thread reminds me of a friend of mine

Her child was punching. Head butting. Pinching. Scratching my friend in the throat. For a good 45 mins. He’s 4! She just let it happen. Because he wanted to swim in the pool on his own and some kids came in.

When he’d finished beating my friend to a pulp. He got put into the swimming pool and when other children went to go in. My friend said oh you couldn’t just wait could you. He wants to swim on his own. What astounded me even more was every member of the public went. Oh. Ok!!!

I tried so hard to keep my mouth shut. Didn’t work.

I'd have been in that pool like a shot out of a gun.

God that’s awful! 4 year olds can be quite strong - what if he does that to another child!

billy Op is looking for support, and not without good reason, and you seem to be overanalysing. It is okay to like a friend and not enjoy the company or their kids or agree on parenting style. If this thread gets op through the holiday without a falling out then it would have done its job well.

Most of us know an Alyssa and sympathise wholeheartedly with op. No one would ever post anything ever on here if we were not allowed to be honest about our feelings, what about the people that post about their own children or parents etc? Does that make everyone a bad person for looking for help? Of course not.

Op needs a bloody medal (and another holiday) I don't think she has said anything unkind, quite frankly she has shown the patience of a saint, I would have been long gone.

I expect Alyssa will be up all night again tonight.

At least when she starts boasting about how wonderful she is OP can say "Except on the climbing wall, isn't that right?"