Non binary in school [title edited by MNHQ]

[malificent7]

Done to death i know but i dont know how to feel.
Dd (13) says loads of her peers are non binary and she finds it confusing. Lots of confusion about pronouns etc.
In dsd school appatently they have had lessons on it ( in what context im not sure).
Everyone is bi which there is no real big deal as at least everyone is learning about the horrors of homophobia.
Its good that ultra feminine/ masculine traits are being questioned...isn't it?
Dd is very sure of her femininity and declares herself as straight/ girly which is not without problems as she likes the faux nails/big bum/ preened eyebrows look.

No it’s not good because it’s very reductive. There used to be myriad ways of being a woman, all as valid as one another. Now you’re either a woman or you’re non binary. Too many non-girly girls or tomboys are being told they’re non-binary. It medicalises what is basic personal choice to adapt from day to day without labelling it.

its great. there are millions of ways of being human, no need to fit into 2 random categories.

I literally don't and never have known anyone who is totally feminine or totally masculine. Except maybe Minnie Mouse and like, Action Man. It's just that everyone in the UK has become so bloody self obsessed that they think that their every thought and feeling is SO important and that they just simply MUST use all their energy to decide which category that they fit into and that this then, once decided, must become absolutely everyone else in society's man priority as well.

It's also become extremely trendy to claim to be 'non-binary' and it's social suicide to be straight!

It's all gone from being something that came from good intentions (aka anti homophobia and anti transphobia which is of course a positive thing) into this weird sort of fashion which is causing it's own harm.

Very interesting period from an anthropological and sociological point of view.

Tbh I don't understand the confusion. I have a friend who's non binary, simply she prefers to be called they/them rather than she/her like your daughter and me and likely you. It can get complicated when people start preferring less known pronouns but why not just tell her to either use the person's name or use they/them just in case. Being gender neutral is unlikely to upset anyone but using the incorrect pronouns like he/she or him/her can be hurtful if you've asked people not to use them. I'm sure your daughter would be upset to be called he/him even though she clearly presents herself as very feminine. You can both educate yourselves about this 'non binary bollocks' and treat people the way they should be treated in an educational environment.

Teenagers will always push boundaries and test things out and they may not always maintain they are non binary or bisexual but I think it's an easy thing to respect people's pronouns and sexual orientation when they ask or to just use their name instead.

@Hopdathelf

No it’s not good because it’s very reductive. There used to be myriad ways of being a woman, all as valid as one another. Now you’re either a woman or you’re non binary. Too many non-girly girls or tomboys are being told they’re non-binary. It medicalises what is basic personal choice to adapt from day to day without labelling it.

Exactly that, it was the case that you were a girl whether you wore skirts, jeans, leggings, dungarees or anything in between. Now teens seem to be getting fixated back in the stereotypes that girl = make up, liking pink glittery crap and wearing pretty clothes. If you don't git that mould you're not a girl and if you don't feel like a boy either you just be non- binary.

Absolute madness!

@Itsanewdah

its great. there are millions of ways of being human, no need to fit into 2 random categories.

I like the sentiment but 'male' and 'female' aren't random categories. Everyone is one or the other.

Gender expression doesn't have to match male or female.

Well, you've called it 'bollocks' in your post title so "Its good that ultra feminine/ masculine traits are being questioned...isn't it?" feels a bit disingenuous.

I don't agree that it's reductive at all. It's just another way of being a person, among many, many ways. It's really not 'woman or non-binary'. But this is MN so I'm going to be in the minority here and I'm sure there will be lots of people along to validate your worries in a moment. For what it's worth, I don't think there's an issue.

Gender neutral is nonsense. Biologically, you are what you are!

Saying it's "bollocks" is a nice pun though

I literally don't and never have known anyone who is totally feminine or totally masculine. Except maybe Minnie Mouse and like, Action Man.

Action Man didn’t have a willy.

Everyone is male/man or female/woman. Whatever else you feel is what used to be called your personality, but is now gender identity. Non-binary is a load of bollocks. I fit all the boxes it for it. Still a woman though, can't change that, can't identify out of it.

It's a way for privileged people to claim oppression.

It’s ridiculous. They can teach about homophobia in the same context as racism and discrimination. But when kids regularly leave school with no idea how to cook, budget, pay bills or any idea what an interest rate it, I really can’t see why we need to be teaching them this shite.

@Itsanewdah

its great. there are millions of ways of being human, no need to fit into 2 random categories.

What two random categories do you mean? Biological sex? Hobbies, interests and dress sense are entirely separate to our sex.

Well - I can guarantee you that all the non-binary human females are still sexually harassed by all the non-binary male females.

You can't opt of the sexism.

You can however reinforce gender stereotypes which perpetuate sexism though.

Non-binary. I mean seriously.

I'm sorry that your daughter and her peers are being pressured into accepting and asserting the new binary way of thinking, that they must either be hyper masculine or feminine in their presentation and expression or alternatively must be non binary. It's not progressive. I've heard some peer reports that nonbinary identities can act as a soft landing away from adopting a trans identity and thus may be the reversible pause button that puberty blockers were erroneously once feted as.

I am looking forward to the day we'll be buying "gender neutral" puppies or kitten

because if we can dismiss the sex we were born with, the same applies to everybody else surely.

It is all rubbish, no one is 100% masculine or feminine, but you will always be the sex you were born. It's all personality, but declaring yourself non-binary makes you extra special.

I imagine this thread will be sent off to the naughty corner soon when the usual suspects report it. See you there!

It's just a bit trendy right now to be non binary! I think it's quite harmful how it is being pushed about - teenagers and young adults are in that stage of life trying to figure out who they are, what they like etc and now they're being bombarded by new categories that the internet is telling them they belong in because they prefer blue to pink or something equally silly. I have no doubt that some teenagers may feel like this, but the majority are being taught that if they like or do anything outside of regular "girly" or "boy" things to question their identity. Tomboys have all but disappeared because everyone is suddenly non binary etc!

@Itsanewdah

its great. there are millions of ways of being human, no need to fit into 2 random categories.

They aren't random categories, they are basic biology and it can make a real difference for medical treatment. Much better to break down gender stereotypes.

It's great to challenge gender norms. But saying that people are anything other than male or female is like saying the world is flat. You can't change your sex chromosomes.

Apart from not being possible to switch sex (apart from in extreme cases such as where people are mis-sexed at birth) it's regressive. For example, defining a woman with anything other than biology suggests there are other traits that should hold women together as a class. Which is what? Behaviour/dressing a certain way/wearing makeup/getting back in the kitchen?

I think that the only thing that makes me a woman is my DNA/chromosomes - anything other than that is defined by a misogynistic society designed to reinforce gender stereotypes.

Men can wear dresses, wear makeup. Whatever. They are not a woman, nor are they neither sex - they are still men.

I really hope society finds a way to help trans people, and those who feel that they do not typically fit into a male/female category, feel safe and free to be who they are, but erasing the biological reality of sex is not the way to do it.

My daughter is facing this within her friendship group. It’s a social contagion amongst predominantly pre-teen and teenage girls. She tries very hard to use the new names and pronouns by her friends, but it’s not easy when she’s known some of them by different names and pronouns since they were 5.

My personal view is that for the vast majority of these children it’s a fad that they’ll grow out of if they’re allowed to. My concern is they’re being taken down a path led by professionals where it will not be possible for them to change their minds back again.

And I agree with the first PP. It’s an erosion of accepting women and men in whatever way they present. We’re heading back 50 years where if you’re not stereotypical for your gender, you’re not that gender anymore.

DS3 (13) refers to everyone as they/them, and says that most of his school use those pronouns. I've suggested to him that he should use he/she/him/her unless told otherwise, but he's not having it.

One of the many good reasons to home educate.

What do these teenagers understand by "non binary"?

If they mean, people who don't want to conform to tedious masculine/feminine gender stereotypes, then great. You can have lots of fun looking up videos of 80s pop stars with them. And reiterating that of course women can be chemical engineers and men can be social workers.

If they mean they are no longer either male or female then you need to be clear that nobody gets to opt out of biological reality.

I have decided, after a long think about it with many debates, tantrums and discussions with my peers, and writing lists to decide what I am and how I am to be perceived, in the long and short of it that I am human.

Who actually, worthwhile talking to at least, gives a fuck what's between your legs and what your corresponding likes and dislikes are? Anyone that gives a shit about that is a complete moron and isn't worth talking to.

You are born either male or female. Liking cars doesn't make you any less female, and liking fashion doesn't make you any less male. Who gives a toss? No one worth while!

Lots of if not all, my daughter’s school friends are non binary or trans or gay/bisexual/Pansexual. Some are a combination. My daughter is a lesbian. Neither of us are arsed about it, her friends are her friends, they’re all very young and finding stuff out about themselves and those around them and dealing with all the same stuff we all did as teenagers only now they can be open about it. That’s brilliant imo. I remember being sure I was a lesbian when a teenager (whether I was or wasn’t, I’m not now) and feeling like I couldn’t talk about it openly. I’m in my 30s- not like I was born in a totally different time or anything.

I really don’t see the harm in exploring this stuff as long as no one is being hurt or exploited, and that can and does happen to straight, cis young people plenty so my attitude is the same either way.