Non binary in school [title edited by MNHQ]

[malificent7]

Done to death i know but i dont know how to feel.
Dd (13) says loads of her peers are non binary and she finds it confusing. Lots of confusion about pronouns etc.
In dsd school appatently they have had lessons on it ( in what context im not sure).
Everyone is bi which there is no real big deal as at least everyone is learning about the horrors of homophobia.
Its good that ultra feminine/ masculine traits are being questioned...isn't it?
Dd is very sure of her femininity and declares herself as straight/ girly which is not without problems as she likes the faux nails/big bum/ preened eyebrows look.

Agree all of us middle aged mummies should firmly embrace the whole palaver wholesale please announce to your teens that you too are now non binary and pan sexual (maybe brief Dh to avoid confusion) and see how fast the youth move on to their next “thing”!

While there are many valid criticisms of gender hypothesis and it’s ideology, it is to be expected as it is quite new. In addition, at the very least it has given us terminology to describe the intersection and conflicts between gender norms/stereotypes and people’s inner lives.

Before it was simply gender nonconforming...and that umbrella covered everyone who wasn’t a walking stereotype. And even the term makes it sound like a bad thing to be. At least “nonbinary” is more neutral sounding.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

Swearing is fine - in context. We'd remove a post telling another poster to fuck off, for example, but are unlikely to remove a post just because it has swear words. In this case, we think it's possible to discuss concerns without describing it as bollocks. Such a term is unlikely to foster broad and civil debate.

We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists or anyone else (except perhaps trolls). If you can abide by our rules – the spirit and not just the letter – we want you to feel you can be a part of the community.

Can’t you just amend the thread title, then?

You do that on loads of threads where warranted.

Seems a bit extreme to delete.

@PlanDeRaccordement

The correct term is Disorder of Sexual Development and those who have DSD's are either XX or XY.

Not true. There are many DSDs where there is a third chromosome. So you can be XXY for example.

Strictly speaking, you are correct but those with Kleinfelter's Syndrome are genetically male - www.nhs.uk/conditions/klinefelters-syndrome/

Non-binary is pretty much the belief that 'gender stereotypes are real but for thee and not for me'.

@PlanDeRaccordement @NoSquirrels okay - we've edited the title.

My son is in his 20's. Two months ago he told ,me he was gay. He's carried this secret with him for, I don't know, 10 or 15 years, maybe more. He didn't tell me because he didn't feel comfortable about being out. I feel like I failed him because he felt he couldn't talk to me. What I would give for him to have had this experience at school and to have never had to keep this secret.

He's a changed person since he came out. He's visibly lighter, happier, more carefree. Just has he should have been for many years.

As for me, I'm a proud parent of a wonderful gay young man and have pledged to be a Proud Ally. Infact maybe that's my new MN username.

So let kids learn, experiment, try things on. It will be such a happier life for those who really are LBGTQ+ and feel free to live as themselves.

Thank you for listening MNHQ. I think we can express our scepticism of non binary gender identity in a respectful civil debate.

[quote YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet]**@PlanDeRaccordement* @NoSquirrels* okay - we've edited the title.[/quote]
Thank you. Appreciated.

As mother of a child of this age who’s discovering pronouns and the gender spectrum I appreciate discussion around this.

It is hard to get across to young people that being non-binary is really basically what we all are. I don’t subscribe to a gender binary. I’m not special- but we’re all unique.

As OP says it’s becoming a thing that’s creating division and bullying in a different sense. Not the intention of the ‘let’s celebrate all genders’, I’m sure.

It worries me.

I would never use they/them as pronouns because I don't talk in the 3rd person when I am addressing people so the need to stipulate these is pointless. I don't use he/she either when talking to someone.

I use - you, yours, ours, we, us. I will continue to use these pronouns when talking to someone and ignore the crap about using something else as this is also correct grammar.

A sincere question, as I don't understand:

Why does it matter to be able to choose pronouns for soneone non-binary? I get why someone who's trans would be hurt to be misgendered/not pass, but why would you feel the need to do this if non-binary?

I can't help but feel like it's a trend or societal over correction, but I'm happy to be told I'm wrong.

@isthisareverse

I am looking forward to the day we'll be buying "gender neutral" puppies or kitten

because if we can dismiss the sex we were born with, the same applies to everybody else surely.

Surely that would be sex neutral?

its great. there are millions of ways of being human, no need to fit into 2 random categories

This makes no sense.. biological sex is science.

This trend is so appallingly regressive and is only entrenching stereotypes. As was said on the FWR boards some years ago;

‘A woman/ girl has a female body and any personality. Not a female personality and any body.’

@PoachedPair

My son is in his 20's. Two months ago he told ,me he was gay. He's carried this secret with him for, I don't know, 10 or 15 years, maybe more. He didn't tell me because he didn't feel comfortable about being out. I feel like I failed him because he felt he couldn't talk to me. What I would give for him to have had this experience at school and to have never had to keep this secret.

He's a changed person since he came out. He's visibly lighter, happier, more carefree. Just has he should have been for many years.

As for me, I'm a proud parent of a wonderful gay young man and have pledged to be a Proud Ally. Infact maybe that's my new MN username.

So let kids learn, experiment, try things on. It will be such a happier life for those who really are LBGTQ+ and feel free to live as themselves.

That’s really lovely. And I’m all for experimentation and open acceptance of that as a teenager. It’s the “pick an identity, any identity” thing that’s damaging. The cult-like insistence that you’re only right if you agree with X, Y, Z is damaging. It doesn’t allow young people to walk it back when they’ve got used to being praised for being ‘brave’ and it can push them further into a path they’re ultimately unhappy with.

Terms need tribes, they’ve always experimented with identity. But ‘gender identity’ is not the same as sexuality so we shouldn’t conflate it.

I think schools are In a difficult position. We are asked by the government to cover certain issues - eg this year we have been asked to teach students about incel culture, and non-binary gender, sexuality and discrimination are part of the PSHE curriculum.

Schools are required to teach “the facts and the law” about gender identity, which is something of a challenge when gender identity is an unevidenced belief which is not defined anywhere in law.

We should not be teaching gender identity theory as if it were fact.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet - Thank you!

@GreatBritishBummertime

A sincere question, as I don't understand:

Why does it matter to be able to choose pronouns for soneone non-binary? I get why someone who's trans would be hurt to be misgendered/not pass, but why would you feel the need to do this if non-binary?

I can't help but feel like it's a trend or societal over correction, but I'm happy to be told I'm wrong.

Yes, I have wondered this myself. I find myself to be an amused observer these days. It reminds me of this feminist literature class I was forced to take at university for my management degree and some of what I read proposed that gendered language is oppression. It made sense for me in terms of “fireman” and so on...yes need to make job titles gender neutral but this author took it one step forward and argued that gendered pronouns are oppression and the sooner we had all gendering removed from our language, the better it would be for women’s equality.

@HipTightOnions this is Scottish Governmental policy - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4322356-How-do-Scottish-parents-feel-about-what-4-year-olds-are-being-taught

@MsTSwift

Agree all of us middle aged mummies should firmly embrace the whole palaver wholesale please announce to your teens that you too are now non binary and pan sexual (maybe brief Dh to avoid confusion) and see how fast the youth move on to their next “thing”!

Great idea, and form clubs and put a banner up in your living room window declaring it so all the neighbours can see.

www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-transgender-young-people-schools-guidance-scottish-schools/pages/2/

@HipTightOnions
We should not be teaching gender identity theory as if it were fact.

Agree and it isn’t even technically at the status of a theory. It is merely hypothesis and new language to describe what has always been.

[quote Waitwhat23]@HipTightOnions this is Scottish Governmental policy - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4322356-How-do-Scottish-parents-feel-about-what-4-year-olds-are-being-taught[/quote]
Sorry yes, I was thinking of England.

I’m a teacher and I know (some? most?) schools here are also teaching that gender identity is definitely real, even though they have been given clear(ish) guidance not to.

@Waitwhat23

I don't have any particular issue with using preferred pronouns (unless it's compelled) but what I find interesting is when someone is writing about someone who uses 'they' rather than 'he' or 'she' but doesn't then change the grammar of a sentence to suit.

For example, when previously using a she pronoun to refer to Demi Levato (for example) a sentence may have said 'she was a child actor'. Using a non binary pronoun, the sentence should read 'they was a child actor' but its never written like that (that I have seen anyway), it's always written 'they were a child actor' which seems inconsistent and not respecting the preferred pronoun.

Random derail, sorry!

Why? Grammatically after the singular "they" you should use the verb that's most familiar.

If I was asked about, for example, whether I had seen someone, if I used he/she I would say something like
"He was over there"

If I didn't know them I would say "they were over there" not "they was over there"

If someone with a unisex name (Ashley e.g.) had won a competition, I might say "they were the winner" instead of was as opposed to "he/she was the winner"

www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they-is-or-they-are

Agreed, Plan.

There’s a word I’d prefer to hypothesis but that seems to be banned.

I have no issue with children and young people exploring the non-binary thing. It’s what they do, they’re exploring, finding out about themselves and the world. They think the reason they’re oppressed is simply because they identify as non binary and anyone who remembers back to that age will remember the ‘us against the world’ feeling. Most of us grow out of it around mid-20’s.

That will be when they realise that ‘non-binary’ Evie is oppressed far more than ‘non-binary’ James. Evie will get to 28 and realise that she can’t get a promotion or a new job because whoever is in charge thinks she’ll be off having babies. It still Evie who has to deal with abortion rights, Evie has to deal with protecting themselves on a night out because she might get harassed or worse. Weirdly female bodied non binary people have all the same oppressions that female people have.

Poor oppressed non binary James though, he has to wear blouses and mascara and explore his flamboyant side because otherwise he’s not being true to himself. He doesn’t have to worry his head about the other shite though does he?
Also, it is James who will be the one classed as ‘stunning and brave’ and ‘boundary breaking’, Evie will just be seen as slightly weird or annoying and will probably be ignored.

All adults over the age of 28 and especially teachers should understand this. It baffles me that some people can’t see it!