Emergency spiritual help needed!

[GrrrlPwr]

We are moving house. This house has a 'presence'. It is not a happy presence. And we would rather not move house with it!

Have already had a priest round to bless the house which helped.

But it's still not gone. The presence not the priest. He went after a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Removal men commented they could 'feel' the presence too.

So. Any ideas?

Any leaving the house ceremony type thing from another culture we could borrow?

We are white British Christian background. So open to any ideas! Thanks

ESB. It's per se, not persay

@Foxlover46

So if the church only decide to help after a mental health evaluation then surely if you were suffering from any kind of depression or anxiety they would consider you to have mental health issues ? So therefore would that mean they wouldn't help ?

The jurisdiction I know about personally hasn’t conducted an exorcism in about 40 years, as I understand it.

If you read the CofE's leaflet on exorcism it's made plain that the deliverance minister must ensure that there is no mental health issue and the expectation is that a professional who is qualified in that respect will assist in making that decision. Clearly they don't want to be in the realms of casting out demons when the complainant has a serious mental health issue that is causing them to feel 'possessed' for want of a better word.

@LoisLane66

ESB. It's per se, not persay

@LoisLane66 It’s God not gawd.

@Ibelieveinghosts

Oh I love these threads and the appearance of the people who somehow know everything that will ever be discovered so can categorically state what exists and what doesn’t. Rather than wasting time on such threads it would be wonderful if they could apply their absolute knowledge to telling us the cure for cancer, How to solve poverty, how to save the planet. What a waste of that all knowing power to comment on someone’s ghost.

I’m sure many will leave their dearly held belief system because some closed minded keyboard warrior says so😂😂😂😀.

Anyway enjoy your new house OP.

Except there is quite the difference between “knowing everything that will ever be discovered” and “not believing in ghosts.”

Not believing in ghosts is quite a low bar to set for scepticism because if ghosts existed, everything we knew about biology and physics would have to be wrong. And though it is possible for everything we know about biology and physics to be wrong, the total pool of human experience which people attribute to “ghosts” is pretty thin evidence.

Theoretically, the world could be flat, but it isn’t according to all our rational understanding and the enormous weight of evidence. Theoretically, there could be ghosts, but there aren’t, for all the same reasons. “I feel something funny in this house” is not strong evidence.

Exactly @MasterBeth

Let's throw away all understanding of science over hundreds of years because someone feels something in their home. It's laughable and a bit sad.

@MasterBeth

That's interesting. Can you show where human knowledge of biology and physics disproves ghosts?

@Refreshpage

Exactly *@MasterBeth*

Let's throw away all understanding of science over hundreds of years because someone feels something in their home. It's laughable and a bit sad.

Or let’s throw away millennia of understanding for a couple of hundred years of scientific method!

What is “laughable and a bit sad” is that you cannot conceive of a world view different to your own.

You obviously believe in the universe made up purely of matter, the four elements, if you will. It is this material world scientific method is suited to discovering and explaining. And that is fine by me. Many others believe in a fifth element that of spirit which stands above the material (this is the true meaning of the upright pentagram in occult circles), the scientific method is not suited to this area. I once heard a really good analogy,your bathroom scales are great at measuring your weight but perfectly useless in measuring your height.

If that is not your belief system that is fine,that is your journey, but don’t think yourself morally and intellectually superior to others because of different belief and thought processes, they are on their journey. Quite often that journey is far more erudite than many of these comments which have resorted to using derogatory language to try and show how superior people are, calling a group of people “twats” as someone upthread did for their often deeply studied beliefs is terribly sad and would not be condoned in any other circles.

@Masterbeth as a belief in spirit is often a part of someone’s entire view of the universe which might or might not be the accepted wisedom of the future, you are assuming that the current scientific materialist view of the world which has existed for a very small amount of time will continue to be the perceived world view for eternity, where, in fact there’s as much likelihood that it will be a glitch in humankind’s thinking. Unless you have some clairvoyant powers you can’t know that, it is only your belief.

[quote Audit]@MasterBeth

That's interesting. Can you show where human knowledge of biology and physics disproves ghosts?[/quote]
You seem confused about what science is.

Chocaholic9
Thanks for the link I am interested in this and will look at her books. I have had episodes of precognition and I can’t understand the point of sensing something extreme and bizarre happening but not being able to act upon this sense apart from telling people I am having a bad feeling before the event which is frustrating and confusing because I myself am not understanding an element of my intuition.

[quote Audit]@MasterBeth

That's interesting. Can you show where human knowledge of biology and physics disproves ghosts?[/quote]
Perhaps you don't understand the scientific method. You can't disprove what doesn't exist.

So, no, science cannot "disprove" the existence of ghosts or God or the invisible goblin that sits on my shoulder and talks to me. However, the existence of ghosts would undermine everything we know about animal biology.

For example, we now know that humans are just animal,. not a special category of creature, created in the image of a divine being. Centuries of biological study have shown us that we are unexeceptional mammals. We are related closely to chimps and bonobos and evolved from a common ancestor.

And a critical part of our understanding of animal biology is that life ends as major body functions (heart and brain etc) cease. There is no scientific evidence that life (or consciousness) can endure beyond the physical body.

So the existence of ghosts (if by that we mean some sort of echo or continuation or... what?... of a dead human personality) would require us to turn that undrestanding on its head. To belivee that humans are an exception to the rules of biology. (Unless we believe that all animals have ghosts? Do plants have ghosts too? Where can we observe these ghosts? How would we know if this was true or not?)

And then... what is a ghost? What's it made of? How does ectoplasm fit into our understanding of the physical structure of the universe?

The claims people make about ghosts and their appearance, disappearance, all the walking through walls... suggests that the are constructed from a material unlike anything we know.

And, OK, maybe they are, as there clearly is much more to the universe than we currently understand, but the evidence that people put forward to believe in them ["I thought I saw somethign in the corner of my eye", "I shiver when I enter this room", "As I woke, I saw a figure scuttling from the room", "I had sex with one"] is much more easily explained in other ways ["You were mistaken", "There is a physical explanation", "You were hallucinating", "You are nuts"] that by overturning the fundamentals of science.

Years ago we had loads of spirits in my house.

Then I drank them, and we've been fine ever since

Can't fix stupid. :-(
(I can't see it, therefore it doesn't exist.)
You'll all find out one day, until then, there's no point debating.

@Drgnbllx

Get a carbon monoxide detector.

My first instinct too

@mamabear715

Can't fix stupid. :-( (I can't see it, therefore it doesn't exist.) You'll all find out one day, until then, there's no point debating.

The irony ...

Could you DEFINE exactly what you mean by "presence". For example, what do you actually hear, see, smell, feel, etc. Please be specific.

The Society for Psychical Research has existed since 1882 and might be able to give you impartial advice that is neither swayed by believers nor non-believers. They try hard to be unbiased. So, I would avoid focusing on superstitions. Instead try to find the rational behind the experiences. For example, if you feel a chill up your spine as you enter the kitchen, is it due to a presence, or because the room is colder than the rest of the house.

@Darlingx

Chocaholic9 Thanks for the link I am interested in this and will look at her books. I have had episodes of precognition and I can’t understand the point of sensing something extreme and bizarre happening but not being able to act upon this sense apart from telling people I am having a bad feeling before the event which is frustrating and confusing because I myself am not understanding an element of my intuition.

Do you realise this makes you sound like you are seriously mentally ill? If you truly think you are seeing he future, please consult a mental health professional, not inane books that will reinforce your delusions.

Scorpio32 love it

The fact that even the church have to make sure people aren't suffering from mental health issues before they carry out exorcism tells you everything, to be honest.

Have you heard about quantum level physics? Well some scientists are now studying how physics moves from quantum to 'normal' physics. As both sets 'work' and yet both sets of rules don't apply in the other area. I find this really interesting. And I think shows that our known world is what we can observe. And then test scientifically. But there are some things we cannot yet test.
Well that's how I see it.

Really interesting to hear others views. I condemn noone, I try to listen.

@Ibelieveinghosts Something is objectively true or it is not true. Whether it is "accepted wisdom" or "someone's worldview" or whatever, there either are ghosts or there are not ghosts.

So your "deep study" is no indicator of objective truth. Your belief in ghosts does not mean ghosts exist. You could study nonsense deeply and it's still objectively not true.

The fact that for thousands of years it was accepted wisdom that the sun revolved around the earth - a belief studied in great depth by ancient astrologers - does not make it true. Science has told us that the earth revolves around the sun. This is objectively true.

What is remarkable about the "journey" of scientific discovery is how, over millennia, the areas of existence over which science has dominion has grown hugely. Hundreds of years ago, the "heavens" were a matter for religion and spirit. They were "unknowable". Who could possibly understand the godly realm above our heads? Now, we have travelled to the moon and the planets and we understand huge amounts about the universe.

And the human mind. Who could possibly explore our thoughts or our dreams? These are beyond reason. Until we invent neuroscience and

are able to study our brain's response to the natural world and learn much more about how we experience reality.

Nobody can "disprove" your fifth element of spirit. Believe it if you like. But be aware that more and more areas which were "unknowable" and only explicable by supernatural means now have rational, provable, repeatable, evidential explanations.

@MasterBeth
Audit
@MasterBeth

That's interesting. Can you show where human knowledge of biology and physics disproves ghosts?
Perhaps you don't understand the scientific method. You can't disprove what doesn't exist.

So, no, science cannot "disprove" the existence of ghosts or God or the invisible goblin that sits on my shoulder and talks to me. However, the existence of ghosts would undermine everything we know about animal biology.

For example, we now know that humans are just animal,. not a special category of creature, created in the image of a divine being. Centuries of biological study have shown us that we are unexeceptional mammals. We are related closely to chimps and bonobos and evolved from a common ancestor.

And a critical part of our understanding of animal biology is that life ends as major body functions (heart and brain etc) cease. There is no scientific evidence that life (or consciousness) can endure beyond the physical body.

So the existence of ghosts (if by that we mean some sort of echo or continuation or... what?... of a dead human personality) would require us to turn that undrestanding on its head. To belivee that humans are an exception to the rules of biology. (Unless we believe that all animals have ghosts? Do plants have ghosts too? Where can we observe these ghosts? How would we know if this was true or not?)

And then... what is a ghost? What's it made of? How does ectoplasm fit into our understanding of the physical structure of the universe?

The claims people make about ghosts and their appearance, disappearance, all the walking through walls... suggests that the are constructed from a material unlike anything we know.

And, OK, maybe they are, as there clearly is much more to the universe than we currently understand, but the evidence that people put forward to believe in them ["I thought I saw somethign in the corner of my eye", "I shiver when I enter this room", "As I woke, I saw a figure scuttling from the room", "I had sex with one"] is much more easily explained in other ways ["You were mistaken", "There is a physical explanation", "You were hallucinating", "You are nuts"] that by overturning the fundamentals of science.

And that is why science is not suited to explaining spirit, it is predicated on falsifiable hypothesis, like you say.

Science is very much based in the material, you are saying that the study of the material would be totally overturned by the existence of spirit. But this isn’t true if you understand the two are different things sitting alongside each other, it’s like saying the existence of numbers rules out the existence of poetry. Spirit does not consist of a “material unlike anything we know” because it does not consist of material at all. I know it’s a conundrum for people who like to apply scientific method to everything but some things just aren’t suitable for scientific study.
It is predicated on the assumption that the material constitutes and is the building blocks of the entire universe, whereas others think that the divine, consciousness, spirit, God, the All, the one, Ein Sof call it what you will (if you can call the ineffable anything) is the Source of everything, of which the material is just a part.

Many would disagree with your assumption that “we now know humans are just animals”. On many levels. Some would argue about the word “ just” others would argue that would be the inevitable conclusion about something that is limited to studying the material with no capacity to study anything beyond the framework of its assumptions on how the universe operates.

To this extent, scientific methodology as it is currently constructed will never prove nor disprove the existence of anything beyond the material.

@MasterBeth but many things are objectively true or not are they? They are often just perspectives. Unsurprisingly, I don’t think you understand the occult world view at all. It is so far beyond a thought process of black and white and blends the material and spiritual. But as I say everyone is on their own path and will reach the conclusions that are right for them at this stage. I will leave you to yours. Thank you for your warning though about the self satisfying scientific prophecy though, I will bear it in mind😁.

Do the non-woo really disbelieve every church minister?

I don't believe them when they say there's an anthropomorphised higher presence who can see all and will judge our sins. I believe them when they say we should be a bit nicer to people and look out for those more vulnerable than ourselves.