That New Zealand's strategy has failed

[JudesBiggestFan]

And they will have to start the long and painful process of learning to live with Covid? I spoke to my friend in NZ earlier and he was in shock at being back in lockdown. He said they really felt they'd defeated the virus and this has just come out of nowhere. I feel for him but an airborne virus...it can't be stopped. And the cost of trying is too high. Or do they still have a chance of beating the virus?

Absolutely, it's not a competition.

We live and learn as individuals and nations through experience as to how to better adapt to a comparable experience in the future.

I'm sure all nations that are living through this pandemic, will have a retrospective, where they think about what they did right, what they did wrong, and what they could do better in the future. At least I bloody well hope so!

Because no individual, no nation, is perfect, nor are they beyond questioning, or being held accountable. Well, they shouldn't be.

I agree about differences, for sure if the government in the UK had attempted to introduce anything like the restrictions and quarantine facilities here they would have been skinned alive, run out of town and the biggest riots of all time would be taking place in every major city in the land.
So there is no way we would even contemplate it.
Gov officials had very little confidence the lockdown would even be observed, and yet were pleasantly surprised that it was in the end - high compliance in the UK. I imagine it would be the same kind of reaction (or worse in France) Spain and Italy and all of Europe, we have relaxed restrictions and everyone isolates at home if testing positive.

I actually think it is a wonderful thing that NZs mostly agree, and seem to be content to take the hit on civil liberties, and maybe they don't find it worrying in the way we most definitely would/do. Societal agreement and cohesion is especially important at times like this.

I am hoping Delta is controlled and NZ are able to get back to normal again soon, the predictions were varying when I checked them, so it is an unknown for now but they have a very strict lockdown and hopefully it will work.

Just for comparison you only have to read the uproar on this thread with a travel quarantine hotel, which is a choice to everyone - and completely their free choice to go to see where we stand on forced quarantine.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4331552-Covid-Isolation-Hotel-Nightmare

Well, for me, if I choose to travel knowing quarantine is a possibility as a result, then I feel I am accepting the consequences of my choices and actions. I find anything else a tad petulant.

When you're talking about the restrictions, do you mean like in our first lockdown when there were no takeouts, essential shops open only (huge debate about whether this included butchers), only one person per household, go out once a day to exercise, but stay local? And police and security getting into argy bargies with people buying things at the supermarket they deemed non-essential - like children's clothing?

Kiwis are prepared to stand up for what they think matters - witness Anti-Apartheid in 1981, the 1970's hikois and landmarches, Nuclear free which led to the first terrorist attack in our territory, by the French against the Rainbow Warrior. They're also pretty pragmatic.

@TheKeatingFive

The point about covid is that it is preventable

This isn’t true though. Not unless you cut yourself off from the world for the foreseeable. Even with sky high vaccination levels, there will be covid.

In NZ the majority is not fully vaccinated. That's why the borders are still shut.

I should say, dying from covid is mostly preventable.

In NZ the majority is not fully vaccinated. That's why the borders are still shut.

Yes everyone knows that.

The point is the Covid is not preventable unless you cut yourselves off forever. Even with high vaccination levels.

dying from covid is mostly preventable.

Well you’ll be testing this big time when you open up.

@TheKeatingFive

In NZ the majority is not fully vaccinated. That's why the borders are still shut.

Yes everyone knows that.

The point is the Covid is not preventable unless you cut yourselves off forever. Even with high vaccination levels.

Your post was worded in a way where it sounded like you didn't know it.

The point is the Covid is not preventable unless you cut yourselves off forever. Even with high vaccination levels.

I really wish people from overseas would stop pointing out to NZers a fact that is perfectly obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

The point about covid is that it is preventable. That's what we're doing in NZ.

It's a shame that you don't care about other people's dead family members. If it were your child or parent who died from it, I'm sure we'd see a rapid change of opinion

See? Doing it again. It's not preventable for heavens sake in the same way that flu or pneumonia aren't preventable. It's this complete denial from some New Zealanders that is exasperating for people who've come through it all in Europe.

Well, as someone in Europe, I think we're going through it all. Just like NZ. And we're all choosing our own paths and our own appetite for risk and loss of life.

Obviously covid, like flu, is not going to go away. But we're right at the very beginning of the experience, all of us.

I really wish people from overseas would stop pointing out to NZers a fact that is perfectly obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

My post was a reply to this post

The point about covid is that it is preventable

So i guess they’re at least clear now about what you think of them.

@Clearlyunhinged

The point about covid is that it is preventable. That's what we're doing in NZ.

It's a shame that you don't care about other people's dead family members. If it were your child or parent who died from it, I'm sure we'd see a rapid change of opinion

See? Doing it again. It's not preventable for heavens sake in the same way that flu or pneumonia aren't preventable. It's this complete denial from some New Zealanders that is exasperating for people who've come through it all in Europe.

Dying from it is mostly preventable with the vaccine. Hence why our borders are still shut while we vaccinate.

Not sure what is complicated about this to understand?

I am not a New Zealander. I am a British person who moved to NZ a year ago during the pandemic. I did 5-6 months of lockdown in the UK so I've seen both sides.

What needs to die is this thread. Half the posts on it are beyond absurd.

The majority of those passing away would be doing so anyway. Most of them in fact were in hospital for another reason perhaps with heart failure etc and caught covid in the ward, but it is covid that goes on the death certificate and not the real reason which is that they were dying anyway. This has happened to many of my friends parents, whom were all very ill and old long before covid came along. It is so alarmist and quite frankly misleading to suggest that it is a 100 healthy people that are dying every day - it simply not the case, it has been proved over and again that most of those that are dying were at the end days sadly anyway. So I am quite relaxed about it, sorry for their families of course, but knowing that life works like that, it comes to an end for all of us.

People have been berated, and called ‘smug’ on this thread, for expressing horror at the death rate in other countries, including the UK.

But this attitude is apparently fine.

It is quite clear at this point that different countries have different priorities for their inhabitants, and therefore different approaches.

As long as the majority of citizens in their respective countries are supportive of the approach and leadership at this time, that is the main thing, surely.

Which order specifically? Not that I mind if going to a facility is compulsory but I'm curious now.

I'm really interested to know this too. I cannot find anything that seems to say someone will be legally compelled to go into quarantine if they test positive in the community.

I have zero problem with positive cases going into quarantine, it's an obvious good for the community. However I ended up getting into a quite possibly stupid argument with a UK poster on this thread who is insisting that people in NZ are at risk of being physically dragged to quarantine because they're legally compelled to go.

My understanding is that when it comes down to the wire, there's no legal compulsion to go, it's just that practically everyone is capable of understanding it's a good choice in order to maintain zero Covid for now (most people actually don't want to put their housemates of risk of contracting it if they don't have to), and in the rare instances where someone refuses to go, other arrangements will be made. I could be wrong, but I can't find anything yet to show that I am, so if a lawyer can point out the relevant passage, that would be helpful.

Just as a general point it is interesting from my perspective how the number of deaths that occur from covid are interpreted.

100 deaths a day sounds like a terrifying figure in isolation (and it obviously goes without saying that every life is valuable and appropriate steps should be taken to minimise all harms wherever possible) but, as an example, sepsis kills 40,000 to 50,000 people in the U.K. every year and I imagine most people have never given it more than a passing thought. Even as things stand (with covid numbers in the community still high) you are much more likely to die from sepsis than covid.

In addition the majority of deaths from sepsis are avoidable. I'm not a covid denier and COVID absolutely is serious and should be taken seriously but I wonder if we have all lost a bit of perspective on it now in a way?

@CheekyHobson

I think you asked for this?

@50ShadesofCatholic

I know I'm a pedant but again, that doesn't actually say that you have to go into government-run quarantine. It says you may be may be ordered to self-isolate / quarantine. It doesn't say where that must happen.

[quote CheekyHobson]@50ShadesofCatholic

I know I'm a pedant but again, that doesn't actually say that you have to go into government-run quarantine. It says you may be may be ordered to self-isolate / quarantine. It doesn't say where that must happen.[/quote]
Yes, I haven't disagreed on that. ☺

Atm covid positive cases are being moved to Jet Park but that is not sustainable.

And certainly didn't happen last lockdown. Lots of locals were in the v first cluster and none went into managed isolation.

However, some were the cause of the spread (teenagers sneaking out) and that led to tightening up of rules.

[quote CheekyHobson]@50ShadesofCatholic

I know I'm a pedant but again, that doesn't actually say that you have to go into government-run quarantine. It says you may be may be ordered to self-isolate / quarantine. It doesn't say where that must happen.[/quote]
To be fair, it’s not pedantic when it’s the entire crux of the argument.

[quote 50ShadesOfCatholic]@CheekyHobson

I think you asked for this?[/quote]
There will be legislation published on legislation.govt.nz giving the government power to require people to enter government-run quarantine. If it's not there, there will be no such requirement.

RNZ 8am news saying the Govt is setting up more quarantine facilities, but if this isn’t possible, people who’ve tested positive for COVID may have to isolate at home.

This is a bit histrionic but it does offer an insight into being past of a covid positive whānau

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-living-with-an-infected-child-in-lockdown/7JB6D2PF55EC77CXIC4YOTSUQY/