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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That New Zealand's strategy has failed

999 replies

JudesBiggestFan · 22/08/2021 23:21

And they will have to start the long and painful process of learning to live with Covid? I spoke to my friend in NZ earlier and he was in shock at being back in lockdown. He said they really felt they'd defeated the virus and this has just come out of nowhere. I feel for him but an airborne virus...it can't be stopped. And the cost of trying is too high. Or do they still have a chance of beating the virus?

OP posts:
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5
WomanStanleyWoman · 25/08/2021 01:31

@Rangoon

Inhabitants of a country which has lost 170,000 of their compatriots are not in a position to criticise a county who has lost 26 . Nor has NZ exported covid to other countries. No matter how you scale it up, NZ has done better. By the way, we don't all live in isolated rural hamlets with lots of sheep. We always knew that there could be breakthroughs. The country is locked down tight as a drum to get rid of the latest outbreak. We can leave the house to be tested or to receive medical assistance or to shop for food in supermarkets. There are no deliveries of inessentials. There are no takeaways available. Our city centres are deserted. All schools are closed. Only truly essential people are at work. Everybody else is either working from home or baking.
You say this like it is a good thing.
CheekyHobson · 25/08/2021 02:17

You say this like it is a good thing.

Well, yes, most people think it is. Good is a very broad term. I think people saying a hard lockdown is good would intend the meaning 'highly effective in achieving a desired outcome'.

Kiwi09 · 25/08/2021 03:02

NZ’s vaccine roll out has had some issues, but it is only a small country and its also working to make sure it’s smaller neighbours are also vaccinated. www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/b883e932-9956-40a7-8d69-96569942ed3c

stepupandbecounted · 25/08/2021 07:41

I am honestly shocked that you are locked away in a facility for weeks if you test positive. It is barbaric. I am sorry but it is. I would live in abject fear of catching covid if I was taken away from my home and forced into an institution. Why on earth can't positive cases simply isolate at home?

I couldn't just 'give' my animals to kennels! I have several horses, goats, dogs, cats, fish in ponds and a whole host of other animals that require twice daily care. I am shocked you can simply say the children can decide between being locked up with you (in prison type conditions) or stay with someone else (surely a risk no one would want to take)

I am amazed you are okay with this.

You have exactly the same procedure as China by the way.

eybkQ8 · 25/08/2021 07:43

I feel pretty sorry for them, they were doing so well and because of that are slow on the shots

TomPinch · 25/08/2021 07:44

@stepupandbecounted

I am honestly shocked that you are locked away in a facility for weeks if you test positive. It is barbaric. I am sorry but it is. I would live in abject fear of catching covid if I was taken away from my home and forced into an institution. Why on earth can't positive cases simply isolate at home?

I couldn't just 'give' my animals to kennels! I have several horses, goats, dogs, cats, fish in ponds and a whole host of other animals that require twice daily care. I am shocked you can simply say the children can decide between being locked up with you (in prison type conditions) or stay with someone else (surely a risk no one would want to take)

I am amazed you are okay with this.

You have exactly the same procedure as China by the way.

Are you being serious? I'm afraid this comes across as completely hyperbolic.
stepupandbecounted · 25/08/2021 07:50

You may think these draconian measures are required, but they are not, what your gov are really saying is that you can not be trusted to stay at home, isolate and look after yourself as they do in most other countries if you test positive. What kind of messaging is that to grown adults firstly?

And secondly the idea of being taken/dragged/transferred to a 'facility' whilst ill with covid and not knowing when you are able to leave (some people still test positive months and months later) must be terrifying for some people. You can pretend to be as chill about it as you like, but honestly if a team of hazmats arrived to drag you off for however long I am not sure you would be so relaxed then!

What a terrible situation, particular if the infections rise and rise (as they are likely to do because so few have been vaccinated) no wonder you support hard lockdowns with ridiculously strict restrictions, anything to avoid being incarcerated in the facility is a good thing for most people I imagine! A massive stick to threaten you all with.

You do realise NZ has one of the harshest responses to covid in the world, and not in a good way. We find it pretty shocking here to be fair. Shocking.

stepupandbecounted · 25/08/2021 07:53

It is not hyperbole if it is the truth pal.

You calling something hyperbole does not change the facts does it! Unless I misunderstood and the facilities are indeed purely optional.

PinkTonic · 25/08/2021 08:02

[quote CheekyHobson]And in regard to people being 'forced' into MIQ, today's paper literally includes a story in which people complain that they cannot get into MIQ fast enough for their liking.

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-day-long-admission-queue-as-infected-wait-to-enter-auckland-jet-park-quarantine/QGWSSQLNTIXLWN5FQLGUMUUUTU/[/quote]
That story doesn’t say people are complaining they can’t get into MIQ fast enough, it just says that there is a queue to get them in now that cases have surged.

It is quite odd how the merest hint of criticism of what is going on provokes such outrage.

Someone asked why people outside care. Many of the people most precious to me are in NZ. Covid was always getting in, especially when Delta emerged. It simply isn’t possible to have locked down any tighter than you have.

The strategy has given you relative freedom when the rest of us have been in the throes of it, and time to plan for the inevitable day that the virus slipped through the net. You should all be fully vaccinated by now, but instead most are sitting ducks. That’s my family, so I care very much.

Yes the vaccine programme is finally ramping up but you need three weeks after the second dose to be fully protected. This is a monumental failure on the part of the government and the excuse that the delay is due to altruism is utterly pathetic.

The question shouldn’t be why do I care, but why don’t you. I don’t care about your politics, but mandatory isolation of sick people in government managed facilities is a draconian measure which hasn’t been imposed by other liberal democracies. The point here being that your government has no option but to go with a dubious and draconian practice because your country isn’t ready for Covid. After 18 months.

PicsInRed · 25/08/2021 08:20

IF all are required to go to a facility, IF, then the logical conclusion is that at least some symptomatic will avoid testing in case they are positive. This already occurs with the isolation requirement, so will occur moreso if the patient cannot remain at their home. To counter this, compulsory door to door mass testing would be required (this is how countries with mandatory covid facilties manage "non compliance").

Perhaps it will be different in NZ though.

If the spread grows the next issue will be availability of (domestic) MIQ spaces and people to staff them.

ButteringMyArse · 25/08/2021 08:30

@Gennz18

Yeah I am not fussy but AZ has had a bad rap down here after the hiccups in Australia.

I find it so weird how the mildest constructive criticism of our Govt and Jacinda is treated by some NZers as some sort of high treason. Holding Governments to account is how a healthy democracy functions.

I think a certain type of mentality does this when the chips are down. There was definitely disapproval of criticism of Johnson during the first lockdown in the UK, like it was unsupportive to point out shitty governance and bullshitting.
gofg · 25/08/2021 08:36

Are you being serious? I'm afraid this comes across as completely hyperbolic.

All of that person's posts are like this. Why what NZ is doing is any concern of theirs is anyone's guess but they seem determined to have their say - ad nauseam.

gofg · 25/08/2021 08:40

You do realise NZ has one of the harshest responses to covid in the world, and not in a good way. We find it pretty shocking here to be fair. Shocking.

We found the death rate in the UK pretty shocking here to be fair. Shocking.

CheekyHobson · 25/08/2021 08:55

Okay, @stepupandbecounted, this will be the last time I engage with you on this thread. The hyperbole in your posts is so extreme I'm not sure whether it's due to wilful misunderstanding, incapacity to understand, trolling or severe anxiety issues but I'm going to give it one last good-faith effort to correct and then I'm done.

MIQ in NZ is not a prison, or anything like a prison. The 'facilities' being used are converted private hotel/motel rooms and suites. Places people paid to stay in on holiday until last year. They are comfortable. Well-equipped. You take your own clothes, devices, comfort items, etc. There are round-the-clock health care teams onsite who monitor your health and let you know when it's safe for you to go back home/to work without risk of transmitting Covid in the community.

Your family stays with you if that's what you want. In collaboration with the Ministry of Health teams, appropriate care is arranged for your pets, in consultation with you for the duration of your stay. There's no 'kennelling order' or anything like that, but it's a common choice people make. Nobody from the MoH enters your MIQ rooms without knocking and requesting to come in. Decent food that suits your dietary requirements is supplied to your door daily. If your condition deteriorates, you can get medical assistance on site or fast transfer to hospital. One benefit is that you don't have to cook or clean while you're feeling rubbish. All you need to do is rest and get better.

If you're asymptomatic and therefore clear the infection quickly, you could be in and out of MIQ in a few days. If you are consistently returning positive tests months after infection, that will be because you're very sick and probably will be in hospital rather than MIQ.

Nobody is being 'dragged' to MIQ. Most people here aren't afraid of MIQ in the first place because they clearly understand what it is and its purpose, which is to keep community transmission to an absolute minimum. This is something no other country in the Western world has done for the simple reason that no other country is currently pursuing (or even has the option to pursue) community elimination of Covid.

It may be hard for you to believe that when people are diagnosed Covid positive and a medical professional explains to them the process and benefits of going into MIQ, virtually everyone sees it as a good thing and is happy to go. For those showing reluctance, the strategy is to keep supplying information until their concerns are assuaged and they agree to go. For those who are utterly committed to staying in their home that they simply will not agree to go, supervised home isolation arrangements are made, but this is very rare.

Literally not one person has been dragged anywhere or threatened with legal penalties for not going to MIQ because there is no legal requirement to go and refusing to go is not a criminal matter. Refusing to remain in quarantine when you have been given a legal directive to do so is a criminal matter, however, so if someone insisted on quarantining at home, a police presence would be arranged to ensure they follow the legal directive. If they broke it, which nobody to my knowledge has, that would be the only instance where police would become involved. Otherwise literally nobody will have a finger laid on them without their consent. This is not unique to either Covid or New Zealand. This is probably the exact situation you would face in the UK if you tested positive for Ebola or SARS tomorrow.

I hope this clarifies your understanding.

stepupandbecounted · 25/08/2021 09:06

I have one last message to you cheeky as I find your manner pretty repulsive. If everyone is so happy and content to spend weeks in an MIQ then why on earth isn't it optional?

Why not give people free choice?

disco123 · 25/08/2021 09:11

@PinkTonic there's no need to be concerned about those who are as yet unvaccinated, because as you say, robust lockdown procedures are in place to protect them.

It's all very well saying vaccination should have been done more quickly, but none of us have a time machine.

So. Given the situation as it is right now, what is it exactly that you would like to see happening that would make you feel less anxious?

Chocaholic9 · 25/08/2021 09:12

@stepupandbecounted

I have one last message to you cheeky as I find your manner pretty repulsive. If everyone is so happy and content to spend weeks in an MIQ then why on earth isn't it optional?

Why not give people free choice?

I spent 2 weeks in MIQ and it wasn't pleasant but it was the right thing to do. If I had been given the option to do it as opposed to just skip it, I would have taken the option of doing it, because it's the responsible thing to do to protect other people.
Chocaholic9 · 25/08/2021 09:17

I couldn't fault the MIQ facilities. I was in a really nice room with a fab view. It was really well run and the staff were really kind and responded to all my requests, I didn't like the food much but I was able to order in my own food, we were taken for daily walks on the waterfront, and it was completely FREE. I was able to go outside for fresh air whenever I wanted. There was mental health support and counselling by phone available for anyone who was struggling.

Couldn't have asked for better. It was nothing like a prison.

stepupandbecounted · 25/08/2021 09:18

What NZ is steadily working their way towards a very dystopian future where people are covered up and hidden away if they are ill with symptoms, thus increasingly the likely spread.

The positive cases will be treated like they did in the old days with the plague, and blamed and shamed for infection rather than supported and cared for as they are here.

Being ill with covid becomes something that takes away your liberty and free choice as you are taken away from your home - which has to be a frightening experience regardless of your assertions that it is a 'happy experience'. Anyone spending time being even in hospital as I have done for longer stretches knows how painful and lonely it is to be unwell alone, and without support and yet this is what your people are being subjected to, particularly the ones that are fairly seriously ill but not unwell enough for hospital admission.

Most people prefer to be surrounded by comforts of home, getting better in their own bed, and neighbours /delivery services dropping food parcels at the door is surely a far more humane response to illness? Locked away in a room in a remote facility for weeks sounds like the stuff of nightmares to most people, particularly when ill.

So regardless if your claims to treat people well, this is not a humane response to sickness, I think you will come to look back on this time with regret.
It is a massive overreaction led by a government that have shown total ineptitude for 18 months, and seem to lack rudimentary basic knowledge about covid, how it spreads and what a successful vaccine roll out should look like. This is not a reflection on New Zealand but failing government policies.

Bucanarab · 25/08/2021 09:19

I have one last message to you cheeky as I find your manner pretty repulsive. If everyone is so happy and content to spend weeks in an MIQ then why on earth isn't it optional?

Why not give people free choice?

"For those who are utterly committed to staying in their home that they simply will not agree to go, supervised home isolation arrangements are made, but this is very rare. Literally not one person has been dragged anywhere or threatened with legal penalties for not going to MIQ because there is no legal requirement to go and refusing to go is not a criminal matter."

MIQ sounds pretty optional to me. Maybe you should just stop posting for a while @stepupandbecounted, you've clearly got some weird agenda here but honestly, you're just making yourself look a right twat now.

MapleMay11 · 25/08/2021 09:22

@CheekyHobson

No, I was trying to make the point that the GAVI programme was implemented in 2000. Since then 14 million deaths have been prevented through vaccination in developing countries. NZ became a donor in 2020 and the contribution has been minimal. For me, that's not the action of of a 'globally responsible citizen' when it comes to vaccination. I'm just trying to make the point that no country is perfect and it's OK for us all to acknowledge our government's failings.

I'm not familiar with the background but I'll accept your point (you could have just said that in the first place rather than sending me off to GAVI to try to work that out). I suppose 'globally responsible citizen' is a very broad term and NZ could have contributed more to this particular programme in the past (that would have been the decision of previous National and Labour governments though, not Labour under Jacinda Ardern). I'm not sure the contribution is 'minimal' either, it seems relative to population and economy size. So from that perspective, you could say NZ has substantially stepped up as a responsible global citizen under Ardern's leadership. I don't see Australia, Russia, China or a number of much larger economies on the list of donors, incidentally.

Also, this is one way of being globally responsible – and NZ may have contributed to similar programmes through different organisations. I'm not saying more couldn't have been done, but I don't have the expertise to judge fairly. If this is an issue you're passionate and knowledgable about, I'd like to learn more.

You're right - I'm passionate about improving health inequalities between developed and developing countries, for which programmes like GAVI are so vital.
disco123 · 25/08/2021 09:22

I'm just feeling so much love and gratitude for all those around the world currently isolating, quarantining or locking down to protect others from COVID.

I think everyone here has done some form of this over the past couple of years and we have all found it difficult for different reasons. We can all empathise. For some it has been really tough and it is truly a beautiful and selfless act ❤️

Chocaholic9 · 25/08/2021 09:22

@stepupandbecounted

I am honestly shocked that you are locked away in a facility for weeks if you test positive. It is barbaric. I am sorry but it is. I would live in abject fear of catching covid if I was taken away from my home and forced into an institution. Why on earth can't positive cases simply isolate at home?

I couldn't just 'give' my animals to kennels! I have several horses, goats, dogs, cats, fish in ponds and a whole host of other animals that require twice daily care. I am shocked you can simply say the children can decide between being locked up with you (in prison type conditions) or stay with someone else (surely a risk no one would want to take)

I am amazed you are okay with this.

You have exactly the same procedure as China by the way.

Your post is ridiculous and ill-informed. There was nothing barbaric about MIQ.
Chocaholic9 · 25/08/2021 09:24

@stepupandbecounted

What NZ is steadily working their way towards a very dystopian future where people are covered up and hidden away if they are ill with symptoms, thus increasingly the likely spread.

The positive cases will be treated like they did in the old days with the plague, and blamed and shamed for infection rather than supported and cared for as they are here.

Being ill with covid becomes something that takes away your liberty and free choice as you are taken away from your home - which has to be a frightening experience regardless of your assertions that it is a 'happy experience'. Anyone spending time being even in hospital as I have done for longer stretches knows how painful and lonely it is to be unwell alone, and without support and yet this is what your people are being subjected to, particularly the ones that are fairly seriously ill but not unwell enough for hospital admission.

Most people prefer to be surrounded by comforts of home, getting better in their own bed, and neighbours /delivery services dropping food parcels at the door is surely a far more humane response to illness? Locked away in a room in a remote facility for weeks sounds like the stuff of nightmares to most people, particularly when ill.

So regardless if your claims to treat people well, this is not a humane response to sickness, I think you will come to look back on this time with regret.
It is a massive overreaction led by a government that have shown total ineptitude for 18 months, and seem to lack rudimentary basic knowledge about covid, how it spreads and what a successful vaccine roll out should look like. This is not a reflection on New Zealand but failing government policies.

There is no blaming or shaming of people who have covid. It's about stopping the spread. No one blamed or shamed me in MIQ. People were very kind.

I'm starting to think you're just posting here trying to get a reaction so this is the last time I'll be engaging with any of your misinformed posts.