That New Zealand's strategy has failed

[JudesBiggestFan]

And they will have to start the long and painful process of learning to live with Covid? I spoke to my friend in NZ earlier and he was in shock at being back in lockdown. He said they really felt they'd defeated the virus and this has just come out of nowhere. I feel for him but an airborne virus...it can't be stopped. And the cost of trying is too high. Or do they still have a chance of beating the virus?

It appears that is precisely where it will end up the minute it lands in Afghanistan, as the place is as corrupt as hell.

Given the Red Cross will have no access now, and the UN are pulling out, I am not sure how it will reach the people that actually need it.
I personally think it is a kind gesture, and shows solidarity with the people, but it is a shame the Taliban seem to feel they are entitled to thank NZ as you are helping them in their view at least. I guess any propping up of a hostile and dangerous militia, no matter how well intentioned could be questioned by some (not by me)

@PinkTonic it isn't illiberal, and it isn't incarceration. It is compulsory quarantine.

The border policy is more arguably illiberal as it limits freedom of both positive and negative cases. However, I do not consider it illiberal either.

I tend to agree about where money is least likely to be applied (for the good of the general population), given where it ended up while UK/US forces were there, let alone with the Taliban in power. I'm sure it was a gesture kindly made, humanitarily minded, and ain't going anywhere good. That's very different to supporting the Taliban.

Following on from the discussion about Afghanistan, can anyone tell me how many refugees NZ has committed to take and what is the plan for their entry into the country? I know NZ still has one of the lowest per-capita refugee intakes in the world so am interested to know what Jacinda Ardern has committed to versus other developed nations.

'know NZ still has one of the lowest per-capita refugee intakes in the world '

Why is that, does anyone know? Johnson gets called a racist for trying to restrict immigration

I absolutely agree that Aotearoa needs to step up, particularly in the face of the disaster of Afghanistan, currently unfolding.

I guess, part of the reason of why we have relatively few refugees, once again, comes back to geography. We're pretty bloody hard to get to! We have offered to take refugees from Nauru and thus far, as I understand it, that has been refused by the Australians. And of course, when it comes to population, having a relatively small population, balancing refugees with current population.

But I absolutely agree, we need to do more.

Johnson gets called a racist for trying to restrict immigration

Johnson gets called a racist because he is a racist and he has a history of making very racist statements.

It is a shame then that you have squandered such a huge amount of time by only vaccinating a mere 19% of the population - what a terrible outcome when so many countries have nearly finished, and are now moving on to the next booster vaccine.
Why aren't you more angry about that lost opportunity? Just asking, I am not suggesting you should be angry or demand better, but I do find it is so intriguing that you are happy to sit in any kind of lockdown, and put up with your borders being closed for so long, potentially indefinitely when a perfectly good vaccine has been available now for a solid 14 months!!! With such a tiny population to cover, you should have been among the first to be finished, and completed the programme months ago effortlessly, and enjoying a normal carefree vaccinated life now.

Okay, so this time your straw man is an imaginary perfect outcome? (Leaving aside the absolute nonsense that everyone in the UK is currently enjoying a "normal carefree life" RN.) The reason we're not outraged is because we do understand shades of grey, and that reality is a series of trade-offs. In a crisis there is no magical way to achieve a perfect outcome, you go for the best outcome you can reasonably achieve.

In a pandemic, you can have high herd immunity through infection, but you're going to pay for that with a massive death rate. You can have a short, very hard lockdown and then complete freedom, or you can have a long, softer lockdown dragged on for months.

You can have locked borders and minimal virus incursion or open borders and substantial virus incursion. You can have priority in the vaccine programme, but the government will have to pay up to be at the absolute front of the queue (high population helps here) or you'll have to have the virus causing havoc so that you become an ethical priority or both. Or you have live a virus-free existence but you'll have to wait for the vaccines a bit longer.

The reason we're not outraged is because the NZ government is playing chess. Yup. There are realistic trade-offs. But we think they are GREAT tradeoffs given the alternatives.

Come back at Christmas when New Zealand has a higher percentage of population immunized than the UK and still less than a thousandth of the deaths, and we'll have this conversation about trade-offs again.

@mbosnz

I absolutely agree that Aotearoa needs to step up, particularly in the face of the disaster of Afghanistan, currently unfolding.

I guess, part of the reason of why we have relatively few refugees, once again, comes back to geography. We're pretty bloody hard to get to! We have offered to take refugees from Nauru and thus far, as I understand it, that has been refused by the Australians. And of course, when it comes to population, having a relatively small population, balancing refugees with current population.

But I absolutely agree, we need to do more.

Many refugees have settled very well in Wales in similar communities. I think you have a lot to offer in that regard but I appreciate your population is small and the Pacific Island nations are where you have a bigger focus.

'Come back at Christmas when New Zealand has a higher percentage of population immunized than the UK and still less than a thousandth of the deaths, and we'll have this conversation about trade-offs again'

Honestly, such a smug way of talking about deaths, wtf is wrong with you?!

[quote lannistunut]@PinkTonic it isn't illiberal, and it isn't incarceration. It is compulsory quarantine.

The border policy is more arguably illiberal as it limits freedom of both positive and negative cases. However, I do not consider it illiberal either.[/quote]
Border quarantine is a choice. Don’t want to quarantine, don’t enter the country.

Nothing whatsoever like mandatorily removing Covid positive people from their homes into quarantine. Of course it’s incarceration.

It’s nothing like the UK border quarantine policy, which NZ also has. I’m talking about incarcerating people who have tested positive but aren’t hospital cases. Like China.

Would you care to define incarcerating clearly? Just so that we know that you are not sneakily using the word in an exaggerated and incorrect way as a way to create false outrage?

My definition of incarceration would be to lock someone up against their will as a punishment for a crime committed.

I suspect you are referring to the NZ practice of requesting people infected with Covid to move to government-run quarantine facilities where they are looked after medically by a team of nurses and have food and other needs brought them, avoiding the need for them to do their own shopping and cooking until they are clear of the virus.

Perhaps you are under the impression that people are forced to do this, which they're not. Not everyone in NZ with Covid is currently in these facilities (you can check the Ministry of Health's website to see how many are isolating at home or in other places) but the vast majority of people do go straight to MIQ so they can protect their other family members from infection and be looked after by professionals while they're sick.

@PinkTonic I don;t think we will agree here, but I think you're wrong.

Many contries have compulsory quarantine for serious threats to public health.

And people who were outside the country and had to return due to visa expiration etc had no choice either. Your arguments are not logical.

Honestly, such a smug way of talking about deaths, wtf is wrong with you?!

It's not smug, I think the UK's number of deaths is fucking horrific. I'm responding to a poster who is asking me why NZers are not outraged by the strategy our government chose, which effectively prioritised minimising deaths over the fastest vaccine access.

It's because we understand that vaccine was needed elsewhere to minimise those deaths that we were happy to wait longer for our vaccine rollout. It's because we don't subscribe the 'well, most of the deaths are people over 80, it's sad but just life really' mentality of the exact poster I've been reply too. Am I pleased that NZ has low deaths? Absolutely. Am I smug? Fuck no, I would much rather the UK didn't have those deaths.

Personally I wonder what is wrong with people who are so inured to the level of deaths in the UK now that they cannot understand why NZers are not condemning their government for what we see as the compassionate decision not to buy vaccines away from countries that are currently suffering through thousands of deaths and instead focus efforts on keeping the virus out at the border and wait our turn.

Well, if every country and acted like NZ did, we WOULD all be Covid free now.

Everyone in NZ with covid gets transferred to mandatory quarantine. Whether incoming travellers in MIQ or community cases.

You can think NZ has gone a generally good job of managing the pandemic and think our vaccine roll out has been a clusterfuck. Most people who live here share that view to a certain extent.

In a way the arrival of Delta has been good as it drives us to engage with the virus in a way we haven’t had to until now - hopefully with the most vulnerable already vaccinated.

Sorry @CheekyHobson but I think that excuse of “the vaccine is needed elsewhere” is absolute spin to cover up our flatfootedness in securing vaccine supply. A government’s job is to look after the interests of its citizens. Pfizer supplies could have been secured 6 months earlier if the Govt had paid a (relatively small) premium.

I guess, part of the reason of why we have relatively few refugees, once again, comes back to geography. We're pretty bloody hard to get to!

NZ flies its refugee intake from UN refugee camps in places as far away from NZ as Sudan - as is the way most documented refugees would arrive in a new country, so distance isnt the issue limiting intake.

We have offered to take refugees from Nauru and thus far, as I understand it, that has been refused by the Australians

Australia don't want to encourage more boat trips. No comment on that, but that's the rationale from the Aussies, so they were never going to agree to it.

know NZ still has one of the lowest per-capita refugee intakes in the world
Why is that, does anyone know? Johnson gets called a racist for trying to restrict immigration

Politics. Refugee intake was increasingly very unpopular with the average voter under Clark and remains so. It's clearly not a political hot potato Ardern wishes to grabble with.

I think the $3mil was well meant and not intended to fund the Taliban, possibly not realising the extent of Biden's abrogation of duty and presuming charities would still be able to operate in the country.

@Whereto

Well, if every country and acted like NZ did, we WOULD all be Covid free now.

Countries with hand to mouth existence and no social security were never going to lock down. Never.

Lockdown is a wealthy privilege. We might as well tell them to go to a retreat and find themselves.

@Gennz18 okay, well, spell it out for me then.

If the premium was "relatively small", and given the government has shown a clear willingness to pour money into managing Covid (there has been plenty of complaint about the future debt created), what, in your opinion, is the actual reason they chose not to do so, if not the view that it was unethical to put NZ further up the queue than countries where the virus is already widespread and vaccination must be done with urgency.

Don't just say 'incompetence' or 'short-sightedness' or some other broad-brush dismissal that suggests they and their advisors were too mouth-breathingly stupid to even think of it. What is the actual reason you think the choice was made?

@Gennz18

Sorry *@CheekyHobson* but I think that excuse of “the vaccine is needed elsewhere” is absolute spin to cover up our flatfootedness in securing vaccine supply. A government’s job is to look after the interests of its citizens. Pfizer supplies could have been secured 6 months earlier if the Govt had paid a (relatively small) premium.

NZ procured supply through COVAX (as did other developed nations including the UK, Australia and Canada) so the argument of supply being needed elsewhere isn't really valid in this case.

The people isolating at home are those deemed close contacts. Everyone who is confirmed positive is transferred to mandatory Govt isolation until a negative covid test is returned. It is quite draconian.

@CheekyHobson

It’s nothing like the UK border quarantine policy, which NZ also has. I’m talking about incarcerating people who have tested positive but aren’t hospital cases. Like China.

Would you care to define incarcerating clearly? Just so that we know that you are not sneakily using the word in an exaggerated and incorrect way as a way to create false outrage?

My definition of incarceration would be to lock someone up against their will as a punishment for a crime committed.

I suspect you are referring to the NZ practice of requesting people infected with Covid to move to government-run quarantine facilities where they are looked after medically by a team of nurses and have food and other needs brought them, avoiding the need for them to do their own shopping and cooking until they are clear of the virus.

Perhaps you are under the impression that people are forced to do this, which they're not. Not everyone in NZ with Covid is currently in these facilities (you can check the Ministry of Health's website to see how many are isolating at home or in other places) but the vast majority of people do go straight to MIQ so they can protect their other family members from infection and be looked after by professionals while they're sick.

There are 41 new cases of COVID-19 in the New Zealand community to confirm today. This brings the total number of cases in the community outbreak to 148.

The total number of community cases in Auckland is now 137 and 11 in Wellington.

All of the cases have or are being transferred safely to a managed isolation facility, under strict infection prevention and control procedures, including the use of full PPE

As previously indicated, it’s not unexpected to see a rise in daily case numbers at this stage.

There is one new case in recent returnees in a managed isolation facility.

The total number of active cases being managed in New Zealand is currently 183.

@Whereto

Well, if every country and acted like NZ did, we WOULD all be Covid free now.

I’m full of praise for NZ’s covid response but this comment is a bit twatty. Delta is believed to have come from India, and they don’t have the privilege of shutting borders and locking down like NZ does. Do you know anything about how people live there? You think they could have eliminated covid by following NZ’s strategy?

The people isolating at home are those deemed close contacts. Everyone who is confirmed positive is transferred to mandatory Govt isolation until a negative covid test is returned. It is quite draconian.

No they are not, they are active cases. Look on the Ministry of Health website. 32 active cases currently at home or in self-isolation, 43 under 'Other'. They are not close contacts. Close contacts are not counted in case numbers.