That New Zealand's strategy has failed

[JudesBiggestFan]

And they will have to start the long and painful process of learning to live with Covid? I spoke to my friend in NZ earlier and he was in shock at being back in lockdown. He said they really felt they'd defeated the virus and this has just come out of nowhere. I feel for him but an airborne virus...it can't be stopped. And the cost of trying is too high. Or do they still have a chance of beating the virus?

@Bryonyshcmyony

And all evidence points to viruses becoming more transmissible but less fatal as they mutate

Generally true, not always, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, with evidence from a past pandemic. But I guess there’s no point in thinking about all possible “what if’s”. Like most people, I just want this to be over with.

@DottyHarmer

Is NZ going to accept any Afghans ?

Good question

@stepupandbecounted

I wonder how many people have actually been to NZ when I read some of these posts. I spent many months there, and most of the land mass is precisely that, fields and sheep, huge lakes and nothing else for miles and miles and miles on end. Even the largest cities are absolutely tiny and very spaced out. Nothing like Scotland, or anywhere else in the UK!!

Please look at the geography, the population and the culture.
There you will have the answer.

Huge Vineyards and sheep and a very small high regulated organised society living a life already very conducive to social distancing and sealed away from the world. I am sure this does not feel like a sacrifice to them now, but a life of lockdowns would ruin this beautiful gentle country, and that is why I personally feel very strongly about it. I want them to succeed, and come out of this as strongly as possible, I just don't agree that endless strict lockdowns is the answer at all, and it may take longer before that is truly understood by the people of NZ.

This has got to be the most patronising, paternalistic and insulting post towards New Zealanders that I have ever read.

We’re not idiots so don’t dish out the paternalistic “I know better” crap. Take that attitude and quite frankly place it where the sun doesn’t shine!

NZ Afghans

@DottyHarmer

Is NZ going to accept any Afghans ?

Why should they? Not their war.

Made the mistake of getting involved in Vietnam and learned a lesson from it.

Why should they? Not their war

Not even the families of NZ Afghans?

@trancepants

There are a lot of reasons that NZ kept it's case so low. And yes, geographical location and population density played a part in that. But they also had a plan of action for novel diseases, years in the making, that they made a decision to put in place in January 3rd 2020. While the vast majority of the world wasn't paying the remotest bit of attention to events in Wuhan, the New Zealand government recognised the the potential danger and acted.

They had accessed their strengths and weaknesses and planned for them long in advance. And when news came of a new virus, they not only had a plan for how to handle it, they actually had the fucking ovaries to act immediately and put it in place. We can belittle their success all we want based on the advantages they had. But all European governments should have had similar plans in place, with our weaknesses and strengths in place. And they should have paid proper attention to what was happening in Wuhan, the fucking instant the Chinese government were willing to admit there was a problem.

And we can look at NZ and say, aw look, what a failure it's been. And yes, it's unfortunate timing for them that the Delta variant has gotten in now, before they have had time to put a proper vaccine programme in place. But they have saved thousands of lives, damaged their economies less and lived really normal lives for most of the last 18 months. Go back and look at the footage of the NYE celebrations in Christchurch. Look at the crowds on the streets singing and cheering. Then have a read of that night on Mumsnet. Think of the Christmas they had and the Christmas we had.

It honestly smacks of a really petulant need to feel a bit of schadenfruede out of jealousy because they managed better than us.

This. I think there is much antagonism against New Zealand and Australia in many posters because our countries have led pretty normal lives until a short time ago. The Delta variant has changed our zero community transmission policy but we still have one the lowest death rates in the world and booming economies.

NSW the epicenter of the high cases in Australia is vaccinating very fast. I don't for a minute say things have been done right - we have a joke of a Federal government that had more than a year to get it right with a vaccination program. Morrison, our PM is a joke similar to Boris, marketing products without an ounce of real leadership. It's been thanks to the States and premiers that Australia were able to keep their zero community policy until the Delta variant appeared.

But acknowledging this doesn't mean New Zealand or Australia have got it wrong at all. Whoever wants to see the real picture only have to look at stats.

I am a Kiwi/GB!

And yes NZ has laughed their socks off at the rest of the world for the past 18 months, particularly Britain. ( weekly phone calls) They did Zero Covid well because they could on size of population and location.

However, what they needed to do was buy vaccine going forward or even make one themsleves, because you can not exist in the global world without travel anymore. NZ has little manufacturing industry and so goods and people will always travel.

What ever we want to say about Bojo and Jonathan Van Tam - they bought a promise of a vaccine and bought large and bought fridges to store it in. On this they did better than anyone else.

Oz and NZ have done little / nothing to contribute to the global effort on the fight against COVID in the past 18 months. The rest of the worlds medical and biotech has collaborated worked their socks off and come up with something that works - not perfectly but then nothing in this world is 100%.

Cindy - locked down brilliantly and then developed a name and shame way of track and trace. The public naming and shaming of individuals - eg, the tradesman form Coromandel who ahs not left the country etc etc. It is a blame game still, you got it, you went here, you spread it to 20-30 others etc. What they have not learned is no one gets it deliberately yet they are making their citizens pariahs.

Cindy did not look forward at a world where COVID existed but we got on with life. She bought 750000 doses of a vaccine, ie enough for 325000 ina population of 4 million, spread fear about the Oxford/ Astrazeneca and did not work and allowed vaccine snobbery to develop. ( I listen to the rellies - about vaccines, the mis information is ridiculous) But then she studied politics for years with Corbyn!

Yes NZ is in shock - the solution is in their hands - get out vaccinate the majority of people and lock down for about a month. You can do it and accept any vaccine going.

Oh and Cindy be honest with your country - supply issues are because you did not buy enough, refused Astrazeneca and did not plan ahead.

It is sad listening to the rellies at the moment -they are scared, very scared and it was avoidable. Cindy you have had 8 months ( since December) to start vaccinating your population and you failed.

So I feel a mixture of sadness for my family in NZ right now as they experience what the rest of the world has in the last 19 months. Anger at the politicians who refused to learn from the rest of the world and resignation that they are still spouting vaccine rubbish and not upping the programme. FFS you have an outbreak and shut the vaccine centres........

No one won or lost in this war - we are still fighting it.

From a GB based Kiwi who wants to go home and see family but can not get a quarantine slot and has/is trying. Who is getting more bitter and twisted as celebrities get slots and yet NZs own citizens are treated like second class citizens.

Just to be clear, I'm genuinely unsure as to whether NZ's strategy is effective long term or not. It certainly isn't without cost though. My friend's mom is dying of cancer and the only way he will see her again is if he doesn't return to NZ as he is currently applying for permanent residency. Only residents are eligible for the quarantine hotels and even then it's a 6-7 month wait. Jacinda Ardern does seem to have the undying trust of her people and he accepts that as the price to become a New Zealander...but had he known when he emigrated four years ago, I'm not so sure. Isolating from the rest of the world, even if life is good in the country itself, is not without cost.

DottyHarmer
is NZ going to accept any Afghans ?

First flight of refugees arrived in NZ this afternoon 👍

@Bryonyshcmyony

And all evidence points to viruses becoming more transmissible but less fatal as they mutate

There is no evolutionary pressure whatsoever on this virus to become less deadly since it transmits early and sometimes asymptomatically and takes a while to kill.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Why should they? Not their war Not even the families of NZ Afghans?

Fair enough.

@bogoffmda

Another deeply patronising post. And anyone who infantilises our PM by calling her Cindy instantly loses any credibility. Don't be so rude.

Unfair to say that Oz didn’t contribute to the global vaccine effort. They invested heavily in a promising and effective vaccine which was unlucky enough to have a flaw which made it unviable (not a catastrophic flaw either - if it was the only vaccine available then it would have gone ahead, they only pulled out because the other candidate vaccines were doing so well).

Then that's probably enough for it then isn't it? If it can be transmitted easily as that's all it needs. It doesn't want to kill its host.

I suspect that a failure of zero covid now will be a good thing in the long term.
Psychologically covid becomes a threat again. Those unsure of the vaccine will be much more likely to get it.
The next few weeks for new Zealand and Australia are critical.
If Delta can be held long enough to up vaccines significantly then the strategy has been a good one.
If it can't then sadly the impact is likely to be difficult.
The exit is going to be hard either way. That's not to say the approach was wrong, just that keeping it out so far is far from the end of the story.

@DottyHarmer
"Is NZ going to accept any Afghans ?"

They are taking 300. They also have their own citizens to repatriate. Then they said they will get involved talks. They don't have a diplomatic post in Afghanistan anymore. Tbf, their Prime Minister and other ministers gave a much more swift response than our's.

@Jaysmith71, there are Afghanistan nationals who helped in NZ defense. Them and their families are being offered settled status in NZ. NZ got involved to keep trade routes open. Their involvement was profit driven. They owe a debt along with the rest of the world.

Re Covid, NZ might have a spread out total population, but all of my NZ relatives live in apartment blocks and all work in meat processing. Factories are big employers, then the service industry, were those factory workers go to socialise. There's a massive anti-vax movement and I'm having constant discussions on FB about vaccines with them. My male relatives over 50 are big drinkers and overweight, so not in the best of health.

@bogoffmda
From a GB based Kiwi who wants to go home and see family but can not get a quarantine slot and has/is trying. Who is getting more bitter and twisted as celebrities get slots and yet NZs own citizens are treated like second class citizens.

Yes it is very very frustrating, I think I have more chance of winning Lotto than getting an MIQ slot.

@bogoffmda

I am a Kiwi/GB!

And yes NZ has laughed their socks off at the rest of the world for the past 18 months, particularly Britain. ( weekly phone calls) They did Zero Covid well because they could on size of population and location.

However, what they needed to do was buy vaccine going forward or even make one themsleves, because you can not exist in the global world without travel anymore. NZ has little manufacturing industry and so goods and people will always travel.

What ever we want to say about Bojo and Jonathan Van Tam - they bought a promise of a vaccine and bought large and bought fridges to store it in. On this they did better than anyone else.

Oz and NZ have done little / nothing to contribute to the global effort on the fight against COVID in the past 18 months. The rest of the worlds medical and biotech has collaborated worked their socks off and come up with something that works - not perfectly but then nothing in this world is 100%.

Cindy - locked down brilliantly and then developed a name and shame way of track and trace. The public naming and shaming of individuals - eg, the tradesman form Coromandel who ahs not left the country etc etc. It is a blame game still, you got it, you went here, you spread it to 20-30 others etc. What they have not learned is no one gets it deliberately yet they are making their citizens pariahs.

Cindy did not look forward at a world where COVID existed but we got on with life. She bought 750000 doses of a vaccine, ie enough for 325000 ina population of 4 million, spread fear about the Oxford/ Astrazeneca and did not work and allowed vaccine snobbery to develop. ( I listen to the rellies - about vaccines, the mis information is ridiculous) But then she studied politics for years with Corbyn!

Yes NZ is in shock - the solution is in their hands - get out vaccinate the majority of people and lock down for about a month. You can do it and accept any vaccine going.

Oh and Cindy be honest with your country - supply issues are because you did not buy enough, refused Astrazeneca and did not plan ahead.

It is sad listening to the rellies at the moment -they are scared, very scared and it was avoidable. Cindy you have had 8 months ( since December) to start vaccinating your population and you failed.

So I feel a mixture of sadness for my family in NZ right now as they experience what the rest of the world has in the last 19 months. Anger at the politicians who refused to learn from the rest of the world and resignation that they are still spouting vaccine rubbish and not upping the programme. FFS you have an outbreak and shut the vaccine centres........

No one won or lost in this war - we are still fighting it.

From a GB based Kiwi who wants to go home and see family but can not get a quarantine slot and has/is trying. Who is getting more bitter and twisted as celebrities get slots and yet NZs own citizens are treated like second class citizens.

Not sure who you're talking to, but I don't know any kiwi who has been 'laughing their socks off' at the hardships the rest of the world has been through.

Only a sociopath would find this amusing.

@bogoffmda - yours is one of the most insulting and ignorant posts I have read on this thread, and your "rellies" sound equally ignorant, so I would be wary of quoting them tbh.

@50ShadesOfCatholic

DottyHarmer is NZ going to accept any Afghans ?

First flight of refugees arrived in NZ this afternoon 👍

Excellent news. Well done NZ.

@borntobequiet

we are going in to lockdown October

It’s unlikely that she’s been so informed, but after the return of schools in September with the only government initiative against Covid being an inadequate supply of CO2 detectors - and the removal of the need to trace and isolate - we can expect cases to be very high by the end of October.

The UK will be vaccinating children in September, probably the 6+ cohort also or soon after, then moving down the age ranges from there, also giving boosters to the elderly and vulnerable.

We'll be fine.

It will be interesting to see what the “tech billionaires” who relocated from West Coast USA to NZ coastal compounds do. No doubt they will be on their migratory (private) flights back again the moment the going gets touch.

I’m really tickled at the idea of everyone in NZ being ‘socially distanced by default’ because the country is overall less densely populated. Picturing everyone walking metres apart from everyone else on massive deserted pavements, smugly revelling in how much space they have. Giant supermarkets where nobody needs to get near anyone else because there’s just so much room for everyone. Public transport with seats metres apart because they can make huge vehicles to drive down their gigantic roads making the most of all that lovely space they have.

MN is ridiculous.

@PicsInRed
That's really great to hear. I am in NZ and I was greatly relieved that the vaccine was approved for 12+ here this week. I know very many people here hope it will be approved for younger children too.