4YO Daughter sleeping issues that wife won’t acknowledge

[Msti34]

Hi all, my daughter is 4 and her sleeping is awful. She wakes up each night at least twice from about 9.30pm, and has ended up in our spare bed with my wife every night for the past 3 years or so - my wife might spend 30 minutes in bed with me on a good night before she disappears.

My wife refuses to acknowledge there’s a problem and every time I raise it she thinks I’m a monster; she simply doesn’t want to make it any better. It’s affecting our sex life (less than once a month!), our intimacy and obviously our marriage.

My wife puts her to bed every night, she lies in bed with her singing her nursery rhymes and letting her play with her hair until she drops off. I’ve suggested that this is the problem as I feel like when my daughter wakes up she doesn’t know how to settle herself and I’m concerned that this will just go on and on. My wife refuses to try letting her fall asleep by herself; she disagrees that she needs to do this and thinks I’m totally unreasonable for asking it.

I don’t know where to turn any more. I’ve told how unhappy it makes me but she doesn’t seem to care at all and just thinks I’m being a b*stard for suggesting that my daughter should fall asleep by herself. I feel like I’m not being unreasonable by suggesting she should and that every child is like this.

Please help for the sake of my marriage!!

@Nsky

I think a sleep programme is needed. She needs to sleep independently at 4 Yes children need comfort at and times, and men need affection and sex. I never allowed my sons past 8 weeks were to sleep in their own beds, comforted and then returned. When babies more than 20 mins they were tended to.

Men need affection and sex? Babies left to cry for 20 minutes before getting tended to?

Oh my.

I really do think you are not being selfish tho.
As for anyone says twice a night to be woken is exhausting it’s not, menopause and being woken very hr is, and hell from 7 to 7 is

@Whatwouldscullydo

If the DD is starting school then leave things as they are. She will be exhausted if she normally spends all her time with her DM. It's a busy, noisy environment

I think this could be part of the problem. There's always some next stage which people assume will solve the problem..of long walks, holidays, day trips pre school didn't do it then what on earth males ultoi think.school will. School should actually almost be a " deadline" for getting issues sorted. Not be assumed to be the solution to all the problems. There's every chance starting school will make things a million times worse.

Yes I agree.

And then it gets a couple more years down the line and the child 6/7 and is actually disadvantaged because they cannot spend one night away from their parent so are ruled out of sleepovers or school trips, can't even stay over with grandparents if their parents are invited to a stay-over wedding etc etc.

It does creep up suddenly, because you keep thinking they're still so little but then all of a sudden it does make a big difference and you realise it's actually a much bigger problem to fix now.

It sounds to me like the OP’s wife has basically pushed him out of parenting their child and put a hard line between her and the child and him. It doesn’t sound like a healthy family dynamic - the OP is excluded and lonely in his marriage. It’s perfectly reasonable to want to share a bed with your spouse more than once every four years and it’s not just sex, it’s intimacy and partnership. All the women falling over themselves to defend her and say she’s a great mummy - well it honestly doesn’t sound like that to me. She has created a situation whereby her school age child is totally dependent on her to sleep. What if the mum can’t be there one night for some reason? The child will be seriously distressed. She is doing her child and husband a disservice not facilitating them to have a strong parent child bond too. And she is totally neglecting her marriage.

OP it sound to me like your wife may have become one of these mothers whose entire world and identity revolves around their child and being needed by them. You’ll get a lot of shit on here for not being totally fine on the sidelines in a marriage with no intimacy or sex, and missing out on all kinds of wonderful parenting experiences with your child. But I totally get where you’re coming from and don’t blame you for being thoroughly fed up.

Its not even about sleep overs.

What happens if one of the parents needs to stay over in hospital. Or gets an evening job so can't be home.

Its a situation based purely on being lucky enough to continue it and no one has to change jobs etc.

I know I couldn't do it. If I'd looked after a child all day like hell would I sit there all bloody night too.

But

Very obviously, if the mum is getting no help and support and is responsible for it all then until that burden is shared equally and they have that back up then I can understand not wanting to rock the boat.

OP it sound to me like your wife may have become one of these mothers whose entire world and identity revolves around their child and being needed by them. You’ll get a lot of shit on here for not being totally fine on the sidelines in a marriage with no intimacy or sex, and missing out on all kinds of wonderful parenting experiences with your child. But I totally get where you’re coming from and don’t blame you for being thoroughly fed up

It depends what came first though really. The mother almost withdrawing herself from the relationship and immersing herself solely In the childcare and deliberately shutting the husband out.

Or

The husband slowly but surely withdrew from any active role leaving the mum taking on more and more and more until she basically does all of it.

There's nothing more off putting in a relationship that what amounts to having a second or 3rd child in the firm of a grown adult who can't do his own thinking, or can't be relied on to be an equal parent.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Its not even about sleep overs.

What happens if one of the parents needs to stay over in hospital. Or gets an evening job so can't be home.

Its a situation based purely on being lucky enough to continue it and no one has to change jobs etc.

I know I couldn't do it. If I'd looked after a child all day like hell would I sit there all bloody night too.

But

Very obviously, if the mum is getting no help and support and is responsible for it all then until that burden is shared equally and they have that back up then I can understand not wanting to rock the boat.

Yep agree again. Your child not being able to sleep without you shouldn't be a controlling factor in your life.

Tbh though from what OP has said it sounds more like mum is happy with this routine and reluctant to disrupt it in order to let OP take on some bedtimes, even though he is doing the stories etc already. To me, it doesn't read like he's not willing to take on his share, more that his wife doesn't see any issue with it, doesn't mind that he has an issue with it, and as such isn't willing to change it up.

That’s a fair point @Whatwouldscullydo

But if that’s the case, I would question why she hasn’t left him rather than staying in a miserable marriage simmering with resentment. There’s only so much we can ever know on here, hearing only one side of the story. Whatever the cause, it’s clearly not currently a happy marriage or family though and that’s not great for the child involved. Seems like some urgent marriage counselling is needed.

Imbalances in relationships often happen because one parent is not pulling their weight. Instead, they leave their partner to meet all their child's needs and demands and then, when those have been met, they impose their own demands for affection and physical contact. It's just demand after demand for the parent doing everything.

Bedtime is often exhausting and fraught. Everyone is tired and fed-up. Expecting one parent to do it all every night and then snap out of dutiful mum mode into dutiful wife mode and provide sex is a bit much, especially if the other parent has just been sitting with their backside on the sofa watching TV since getting in from work.

So yes, it does depend on the division of responsibilities. You say your wife does bedtime every night? Do you do bathtime? Do you cook dinner? Do you clean the kitchen and do the dishes while she's putting your DD to bed? Does she get some down time when you get back from work so she can re-charge her batteries ahead of having to do the whole bedtime routine? Or is she simply expected to do it all and then, at the end of a long, boring, tiring day, magically be in the mood for sex?

I agree it doesn't sound happy.

Not at all.

Having been on two maternity leaves and working evenings I can definitely say its boring, long and lonely. An I felt that detached from life after 6 months, I can't imagine what 4 years of no work and little adult company would do to a person. It's so so so hard watching your partner live their life like nothing has changed reaping all the benefits of what you do but not even realising it and " having the nerve" to feel miffed that you dont do all the wife duties. There must be a degree of that tbh.

Its a catch 22, you can't go out /back to work or get a hobby or meet with friends while you are needed for bed times. But But I can imagine also that after 4 years friends have probably stopped asking now so there's no reason to change it becuase all you are gonna do is sit downstairs in the house with another person you feel needs you.

It must be incredibly emotionally draining.

@tegannotsovegan

Why are people saying 4 year olds shouldn’t be waking up twice a night? Everyone wakes through the night at least once a night, even if you don’t remember doing it. Im 23 and wake at least 3 times a night.

Where did this toxic mindset come from that children should be able to self settle at such a young age?? My son is 3 and i lay with him and sing him songs until he falls asleep and then if he wakes in the night I’ll go in his room to settle him. 9/10 times, he ends up in bed with me and my partner. There is literally nothing wrong with cosleeping/bedsharing. Literally nothing.

It's all very well and good if both parents are happy with it. But what if they're not?

If my DH spent a large chunk of the evening sitting with one of our dc's until they fell asleep and then let them come and sleep in our bed every night I'd be pretty fed up. And if it got to the point that it was becoming a barrier between us and ruining our marriage and our sex life then I'd be seriously considering splitting up if he wasn't open to making changes. I don't want an extra person taking up space in my bed and fidgeting and snoring all night. I want to get a decent sleep in my own bed, next to my DH. And I don't want to be stuck in my dc's bedroom for hours every evening (precious chill out time) because I've not taught them to fall asleep by themself. Obviously I'm happy to do these things on the odd occasion when they are unwell or they need me but no way would I be OK with doing it every night. And the main thing is that I don't want my dc's to be wholly reliant on me to do a basic thing like drifting off to sleep. Imo that is not a good thing for them at all.

Lots of parents who have never Co slept children are crawling out of the woodwork.
Myth busting time with the same level of anecdotal evidence.
In my small sample of my children and a few school friends: all children who have Co slept up to age 12 have

1. Been able to eventually sleep through the night whenever they were ready. For some it was 2 years old, for others 5 and for others 10. But they all did it eventually. Most were about 5.
2. They all cope with emergency nights away from parents at all ages. There's an implicit understanding or trust that if the parents could, they would be there. If they are not there then there is a real emergency. This usually is easier from 4/5 years old. A bit harder younger but they cope.
3. They are really good at sleepovers from about 6-9 years old. They need a phone call the first night but it comes naturally to them.

For some reason parenting in the UK and US is being geared for children to an adult schedule of doing everything before they start school or day care. If you want that type of parenting fine. But don't call other methods rods for your own back just because you didn't want to go at the child's rhythm instead.

[quote 3ormorecharactersss]@Msti34 so you have addressed that you aren’t happy with the situation but what have you done to bring about change? I hate when someone says ‘that’s wrong’ but doesn’t actually come up with valid support to make changes. Do some research and the approach your wife for a chat about possible options with YOU helping. Don’t hat say ‘this is wrong, change it’ that doesn’t help anyone. You need to be coming up with solutions and be ready to put the work in too. However, if your wife doesn’t want to change, you need to address he other issues separately.[/quote]
If there's one thing I've learned about marriage is that you cannot change another person. OP can't change this situation without their wife agreeing and being on board. It sounds like she has been very much calling all the shots with this child's upbringing, you can try and blame OP for that if you like but some people can be very controlling and changing that is extremely hard or nigh on impossible.

Having said that if I was OP I would having a serious conversation with his wife about why she refuses to let him have an opinion or make decisions about bedtime. I would even be wondering if couples counselling was needed.

Having said that if I was OP I would having a serious conversation with his wife about why she refuses to let him have an opinion or make decisions about bedtime.

Because in 4 years he hasn't understood what the positive of this bedtime routine is.

calling his wife controlling because she doesn't want to break a working system is nuts.

OP you have work to do. Understand what your wife is trying to maintain or attain then she can trust that whatever you propose will come from a place where you are trying to achieve this too not just your time with her. If getting time with your wife is your primary goal instead of your entire family being happy, you will not get anywhere.

There are no rules on how young a child should be able to sleep through the night or how they should go to bed. It should be what works for the children and the parent(s).

We haven’t co-slept - I struggle to sleep with my husband in the bed with me let alone a wriggly toddler! - but we did have a cosleeper next to the bed whilst breastfeeding and during the worst of our disturbed nights with 1 year olds. My eldest was in his own bed all night every night from 15 months, but he still woke up every night at least once until he was 5. He would call out, one of us would go in and he would resettle within a few minutes. I hated the lack of sleep but it was just the way he is. He is now 10 and still struggles with anxiety at bedtime (not about sleeping, it’s just the time his worries bubble up as it’s the only time he’s still and quiet!) His brother has had the same bedtime routine and the same response to nighttime waking and he has slept through every night since he was 2 or 3 and rarely woke when he was younger. It’s just the way some people are made - I’m a terrible light-sleeper myself!

I still sit in with my kids after lights out (they share a room) - we read a book, have a hug, they get into bed and I sing a few songs as they fall asleep. It takes less than 10 minutes after lights are out (though it used to take much longer - anxious eldest took a long time to switch off) and bedtime is pretty much my favourite part of the day. I like doing it, so I’ll keep doing it until it doesn’t suit us anymore. They’re 10 and 8 and they won’t want me there forever. I guess once the oldest is starting secondary it’ll stop So, yes, to those saying ‘you can’t do this for four/five/whatever years’, I’ve done it for 10 and I’m perfectly happy. I go out regularly, go away with work for a week at a time at least once a year, they go to stay with my parents, and it’s not an issue for them not to have me there. But when I’m home, it’s time I like to spend with them.

Everyone’s needs matter, including the OP, but there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with what his dw is doing if she’s happy with the arrangement.

calling his wife controlling because she doesn't want to break a working system is nuts.

I guess it depends if you think the current situation is working. The OPs wife must be knackered spending the night settling a child, then being disturbed. If this has been the same every night for the last 3 years then how she has managed is beyond me.

For some reason parenting in the UK and US is being geared for children to an adult schedule of doing everything before they start school or day care. If you want that type of parenting fine. But don't call other methods rods for your own back just because you didn't want to go at the child's rhythm instead

Of course it's geared to that.

Because that's life here. Work. School. Friends etc. No ones gonna wait in a cafe for hours for their friends ti show up and just shrug and say " they have obviously just over the child wasn't ready to wake up"

You cant just call the gas engineer and say " sorry dd was up all night we r up now you can come over "

You cant show up to work when you feel like it based on the child's rhythm.

Ofsted dont remove absent marks for children of co sleepers.

And kids do need to fit into parents lives to a degree. You cant bend every thing all the time. You'd never get anywhere.

calling his wife controlling because she doesn't want to break a working system is nuts.

But it's not working for OP is it? You talk about making the whole family happy but at the same time dismiss the OP wanting to spend time with his wife which would make him happy. There are 3 people in the family (from what I can gather) so why is the wife and daughters happiness more important than the OP's? Each person's happiness should be equally important.

@Whatwouldscullydo

For some reason parenting in the UK and US is being geared for children to an adult schedule of doing everything before they start school or day care. If you want that type of parenting fine. But don't call other methods rods for your own back just because you didn't want to go at the child's rhythm instead

Of course it's geared to that.

Because that's life here. Work. School. Friends etc. No ones gonna wait in a cafe for hours for their friends ti show up and just shrug and say " they have obviously just over the child wasn't ready to wake up"

You cant just call the gas engineer and say " sorry dd was up all night we r up now you can come over "

You cant show up to work when you feel like it based on the child's rhythm.

Ofsted dont remove absent marks for children of co sleepers.

And kids do need to fit into parents lives to a degree. You cant bend every thing all the time. You'd never get anywhere.

Hmm?

Mum doesn't turn up to coffee? We take a coffee back to hers if we have time if not see her another time.

Gas man turns up when I've just woken up - I show him what need fixing and carry on with the rest of my day.

I and hubby have chosen work roles which work with timezones that suit our needs. This is the only thing that is unusual to most other setups. But even without kids I'd have needed to be picky about the work I do to fit other parts of my life.

Co sleeping doesn't change the child's wake up time. Not sure what absent marks have to do with cosleeping?

Co-sleeping doesn't mean your day goes upside down... the day itself is normal?

@TerrificTeapot

Having said that if I was OP I would having a serious conversation with his wife about why she refuses to let him have an opinion or make decisions about bedtime.

Because in 4 years he hasn't understood what the positive of this bedtime routine is.

calling his wife controlling because she doesn't want to break a working system is nuts.

OP you have work to do. Understand what your wife is trying to maintain or attain then she can trust that whatever you propose will come from a place where you are trying to achieve this too not just your time with her. If getting time with your wife is your primary goal instead of your entire family being happy, you will not get anywhere.

Maybe their aren’t many positives in his eyes? And as this child’s parent he’s allowed to say that. And it is controlling to deny one parent any say in an important issue. And who says it’s a “working system”? It’s not working for them as a family.

But what if rhe child's natural rythm is 11-9 as opposed to 7-7 which is what many kind of aim.for here ?

If they sleep late , wake late and eat breakfast late then that wouldn't work with a school day.

Of course parents will Taylor any routine to their life style. If you need to he out the house and at the child minders by 7.30 you would change the timings accordingly.

Uts just not possible to have the flexibility in all circumstances.

@Shelovesamystery

calling his wife controlling because she doesn't want to break a working system is nuts.

But it's not working for OP is it? You talk about making the whole family happy but at the same time dismiss the OP wanting to spend time with his wife which would make him happy. There are 3 people in the family (from what I can gather) so why is the wife and daughters happiness more important than the OP's? Each person's happiness should be equally important.

That was my initial point to op so many posts ago. This setup works out best for whatever reason. And I suspect that the wife has this setup so that he can go to work rested. It could also be for restful evenings, peaceful mornings or just to have a happy kid or whatever else she thinks the family needs right now.

The point is op lives in the same house and just thinks ugh "soft mom".

He is thinking of this as 3 people: mum in the middle and he and child vying for her attention.
He needs to find out what it is behind this setup rather than pitting himself against his kid.

Uts just not possible to have the flexibility in all circumstances.

That's why I ask posters not to assume that co sleeping is a rod for the parents back. You don't know how much flexibility any parent has online...
That was the point of the whole post. Not to shame Co sleeping just because you didn't do it.

This woman is doing it. She's not automatically parenting wrong. Or making a rod for her back.

Well she kinda is because the child won't sleep without her. Its obviously not created the security and peace that co sleeping is supoosed to bring as the child is kicking off every night.

Now Either it's a tantrums she could sleep fine , In which case that needs sone discipline measures or there's a real issue with regards to sleep that I'm surprised by 4 that they have much more patience and hope that it will resolve on its own.

Surely it's possible both to cos sleep and work on sleep issues? And acknowledge the issues may just be more than the fact there's no one else in the bed?

He is thinking of this as 3 people: mum in the middle and he and child vying for her attention.

I agree. In functioning relationships, parents don't compete with their children for the other parent's attention. Instead, the two parents work together to meet their children's needs and, once those needs are met, hopefully they will both have some energy left over for their relationship and also for themselves.