AIBU to insist we stay in London?

[londonlass33]

DH wants to leave London and I desperately don’t. We’ve visited numerous places in the south-east where we could viably live (due to commuting distance mainly) to house hunt and I’ve just not felt at home anywhere.

For me London has it all - culture, diversity, fabulous parks, restaurants, excellent public transport, nightlife, sports and myriad educational and job opportunities for the DC when they get older. Nowhere we’ve visited has come even close to my mind.

We also live in a lovely quiet street with a wonderful sense of community and are good friends with our fabulous neighbours. We have many friends in the area through the DC’s nursery too.

DH is adamant he wants to leave as whilst he acknowledges all of the above, he’s got his heart set on a change of scenery after the last 18 months. I’m very reluctant to give it a go for the aforementioned reasons and because it will be nigh on impossible to come back if we leave and regret it.

WWYD?

I'll give you my perspective as someone who moved out of London 3 months ago.

We moved from zone 2 south London to a small cathedral city about an hour away. I wanted to live in a city so as not to miss out on the cultural stuff I loved about London.

Pros:
We have been able to move to a really beautiful Victorian house near the city centre. We have literally triple the amount of space and our house backs onto fields. This has been immeasurably good for our quality of life.
There is loads to do, especially for kids, in the city where we have moved. I am not finding it that different to London in terms of choice.
It feels much safer, cleaner and more pleasant here. No drug addicts on the street outside my house, no one pissing in my front garden.
There are great local state schools. The schools where I lived in London were rough AF and we couldn't afford to go private.

Cons:
You absolutely need a car round here. The selection of stuff within 5 mins walking distance is very limited. We got a car almost immediately.
It is not very ethnically diverse, although it's better than I feared.
It takes me at least 1hr15m to get to any social thing in London. Sometimes much longer if I am going across town.
The Deliveroo options are pretty rubbish. I really miss Lebanese, Turkish, Iranian, Mexican food. Here it's chicken tikka masala land.
I don't know anyone! And am pretty lonely at the moment. But I'm hoping that will improve when I go on my next mat leave.

For me I know it was the right thing for us in the long term but I am still having undeniable pangs of missing london. However, we could never have afforded a proper family home there and it is a huge relief to finally be in a large, comfortable house with lots to explore nearby.

@Thepathofleastresistance

Don't do it. We did. Lovely house. All the idyliic criteria ticked off. I'm beyond bored and lonely half the time. I like where we live but I find the isolation or at least my propensity to isolate very hard. It has really affected my mental health badly.

Same here, don't do it!

I loved living in London and can imagine moving back there when the kids have left home. We live in the outer suburbs near the M25. We can be at Marylebone in 25 minutes which feels not too far away. We have a house with an acre of garden which I enjoy. I like my neighbours but it doesn't impact me that much as we're all spaced out (house wise that is...).

There's no "old and new", most people have come out of London and, while there's a nice community, there's plenty of turnover so there's not a "locals" vibe. It's been very easy to make friends through school, sports clubs etc.

Downsides are that you need a car for many things (though handy to be on the tube in terms of the kids getting themselves around). The traffic is far worse than a few years ago and gets quite wearing. And there's no view of the sea (which I long for!).

@flowerpootle

Absolutely don't go. I live in London and feel similarly to you. Is a 2nd home for weekends even slightly possible? (Although I think this is ethically extremely dodgy it might be the only way to make you both happy)

My parents did this many many years ago and that 2nd home ended up being the place our family settled. I moved away but members of my family have been there for almost 50 years now.

@Blossomtoes

*often there is no safe walking in the country, narrow roads, people drive too fast, let alone the vulnerabilities of being alone, in the dark. so the children probably get less freedom actually*

This is true only if you live in the back of beyond miles from civilisation. The Home Counties commuter belt isn’t like this at all.

This is true but what's the point in moving from London to a market town or similar? May as well stay put.

I'm not sure if the idyll of roaming the country fields exists. It isn't Darling Buds of May anymore. They will get shouted at by a disgruntled farmer and generally people from London aren't welcomed with open arms (l know - l moved from London years ago).

I don't regret moving because l need the mental space being more away from people gives me but if you want vibrant entertainment etc stay put. You will be a taxi for the kids as public transport is terrible. Some of the houses are amazing though. And l love being near the coast.

I left London and wish I hadn't. Where I live now is very nice and family friendly etc etc but it's so bloody boring and homogenous.
I can't wait for the kids to finish school and college so I can get back to somewhere with some diversity.

@babouchette you seem to have a good mix.

The thing about teenagers in London it surely can't be that different to being a teenager in other cities or big towns. I & my friends spent most of our time in our area for shopping, cinema etc & didn't go into z1 that often. When we turned 16 we did go clubbing but that's not such a thing these days & I now know many parents who ferry their teens around as they are nervous about them being out alone.

In my area in North Kent are they are building so many houses and flats in close proximity , our air pollution is quite high, all the fields surround me are now large housing estates & there are not enough drs or school places . If you move do lots of research .

so I can get back to somewhere with some diversity.

What do people mean by diversity? I think London has more segregation now than my youth. I didn't actually know anyone who wasn't a 2nd gen immigrant until I went to uni now my street is 95% white (I live near where I grew up). Wandsworth or Bromley has a very different demographic to Tower Hamlets or Brent. Or are people talking about food options?

I guess it depends on commuting distance - if you could easily get into London maybe you could compromise? Somewhere like Guildford? Great schools, great transport links, 50 mins into Waterloo. Full of 'Londoners' too!

If you leave, you will never be able to return. Unless you are incredibly financially well off. Leaving the London property ladder is not a wise thing to do.

Don’t do it. I live on the outskirts of London. DH talks about retiring to the countryside in 10 years or so ... I talk about moving further into London. I’d love to be able to walk to shops, bars, restaurants, cinema, theatre. London is actually a very green capital, tons of lovely parks.

I enjoy a weekend in the countryside but living there really doesn’t appeal.

@Tealightsandd

honestly don't understand why anyone chooses to live in London past their early twenties/young adulthood tbh.

Some people are actual real Londoners. For them London isn't just a place to be used to make money out of before fucking off. The media handwringing (and insular MN threads) about 'locals' elsewhere in the UK always conveniently ignores the fact that London too has locals with local family and local community. It's not just a thing in Cornwall or the Lakes. Yes, many have been displaced but a fair few still (for now) remain. For the same reasons why locals anywhere else stay where they are. To be near their families, communities, and support networks.

I agree with this.

I live in the suburbs and for me it's the best of both worlds. Half of my neighbours have lived here decades, but there's also a gentle change over of newcomers. I love my community and that just walking to the local shops I'll see a few people I know. Yet I can jump on a train and be in the West End in half an hour. Don't have to use my car for most of the things I get up to.

Best of both worlds IMO.

Leaving the London property ladder is not a wise thing to do.

Is that actually true still? I thought London has seen the slowest growth in the past few yrs & was predicted to be slow for the next few yrs. Where I am prices stagnated since Brexit & it was only the stamp duty pause that pushed the market forward but some flats were selling for what people paid. I also read that big numbers of ftbs decided to not buy in London so that will have a knock on effect.

The countryside is massively overrated for kids - once they’re over going for a walk there is fuck all to do. I grew up in a city and agree with previous posters that city kids generally have far more independence. My dh was reliant on lifts to go anywhere and didn’t have things like a swimming pool, cinema, etc anywhere near. I had a handy bus route to all that.

We live in a rural ish area now and I fucking hate it. I’d give my right arm to be back in London!

You could move from London to a Kent town and back again feasibly (the reduced commute cost would eventually offset the higher house price) but London to further out and back again...hard. We paid double for a London 3 bed what we got for a Harrogate 3 bed about 20 years ago. The price differentials haven't changed that much although both prices have gone up enormously (and wages have flatlined).

As a Londoner, I went. Moved many times now to different parts of the country. Enjoy visiting London as a tourist but wouldn’t want to live there again.

I’m like your DH, grew up rurally. Was living in the city when we conceived and I literally broke down into tears at the thought of raising DC anywhere other than the countryside, almost like I had failed DC. I appreciate that’s irrational but it totally comes down to what you’re familiar with. Logically more built up areas have “everything” but it feels alien. I think PP of renting could be a good idea.

We live in what is considered a desirable market town within 50 minutes by train to London, a lot of people from London tend to move here. My DH grew up here and he used to go off on his bike all day. It’s not like that now. Too many cars on the road, I wouldn’t consider it hugely safe. Our DD is 13 and she’s bored here. Having come back from a week in a northern city she says there’s much more going on there. Today she’s getting a train with her friend to go into a city because she’s bored. Lots of people grew up here and have an established social circle which often includes lots of family. I’d like a change of scene because I don’t enjoy living here though my DH likes it but we’ll probably wait until the kids finish education as two attend Sen schools and we don’t want the risk of moving them.

If you are commuting, the kids aren't going to have any countryside roaming during the week anyway, just loads of childcare.

If you "commute" to the countryside/beach at weekends, you get the same outdoor time and a lot less driving time. A beach hut? A set amount of money allocated to going away regularly?

We had the same process - we decided to stay. My advice is though not so base it on their / your friendships. People leave so often, even people you thought would never leave as they had a decent size house etc. They have lost so many friends so base any decision on you and your family only.

@tynat

Leaving the London property ladder is not a wise thing to do.

Is that actually true still? I thought London has seen the slowest growth in the past few yrs & was predicted to be slow for the next few yrs. Where I am prices stagnated since Brexit & it was only the stamp duty pause that pushed the market forward but some flats were selling for what people paid. I also read that big numbers of ftbs decided to not buy in London so that will have a knock on effect.

Only flats (because of the cladding issue). Houses have held their value and then some. Nothing can replace the buzz of London as the UK’s capital city.

I moved from London to Manchester and while it’s been great certain things aren’t the same. There isn’t a huge variety of theatres and concerts (but there are some, unlike say Preston). Niche jobs which pay high salaries are still concentrated in London (or remote working with 1-2 days in the office). These salaries are for skill and not cost of living (think 10 years of experience and multiple professional qualifications) - the most I can find is one lower down the scale for ‘generic’ positions, or management positions.

Could you compromise by taking a few months in one of the areas you're considering before your DC start school - you might even be able to find a house swap

After 18 months of lockdown without the benefits of living in a city, I can see why he would want to move out. That being said, I don't think right after lockdown is the right time to make this decision, I would probably suggest to him to wait a year and see how he feels with things opened up again.

The deciding factor for me would be the commute. If you are an 1h away from children and pets, there are additional costs (e.g. wrap-around care, dogwalker) which can also be more difficult to access or find a good fit for (fewer options) outside of cities. What if there is a natural disaster, e.g. a flood, how quickly could you get to your children and pets? These things will increase in frequency, so worth to consider.

There are also lots of small things that usually affect women more, particularly if you live very remotely, e.g. you might find it more difficult to get food delivered (and less variety), will need to plan for snow days/power cuts/..., if you currently have a cleaner you might not be able to get one, neighbours in villages can be very 'cliquey' = fewer social contacts and less support (and lots prefer things to be quiet), what if your car fails (is there public transport?),... also with more people moving to the SE, you might not be able to get a bigger place just by moving out of the city or only if you move to one of the less desriable locations (i.e. no/limited public transport). I remember living in Brighton and getting to Gatwick was a nightmare for morning flights, usually cost £40 on a taxi one-way. Trains in/out of London tend to end around midnight, so the "but we can always take the train and go for a show/night out" may not be as realistic as your DH thinks.

I grew up in a small village, so I get where he is coming from, but it is also easy to forget the downsides. Children aren't as free anymore and politcally, people tend to be more conservative outside of cities. These days, 10,000 horses couldn't get more to move out to the countryside - if only because of the convenience of ordering in an excellent meal when DH and I are both shattered.

@TractorAndHeadphones my house went up massively around 2014 & my parents house is ££££ compared to the 40k they paid in the 80s but not much has changed in the last few yrs although admittedly these areas are already expensive. My parents chose London because it was cheaper then the more desirable home counties.