Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@bluewanda

The Taliban are now saying they won’t let Afghan people leave - it’s chilling. I read that the Americans are guarding the airport and that commercial flights are grounded for now. Is that to allow military flights in and out first? When will commercial flights be allowed to start up again? We need to help as many Afghan women and children as possible come to start new lives in the UK and US - it’s the least we can do. I just worry it’s too late

I agree, but I'm not convinced Priti Patel will feel the same way.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if only those Afghan citizens who worked alongside the allied troops were allowed entry.

Apologies if this link has already been posted, but it's a really moving piece of writing.

Hardly a “western driven war” when Afghanistan powers were declaring war on the US and attacking for almost a decade before the US retaliated.

So, the army that has surrendered will have also surrendered their billions of pounds worth of equipment that was provided by the west. Most likely they will be forced to train the Taliban up in how to use them on the threat of death or worse.

So… essentially we’ve armed the Taliban with billions of pounds of weaponry and provided them with trainers to be able to learn how to use it.

Terrifying.

I can't ever understand the arguments of sending men first?

My dh would never leave us and its probably me who in this situation would be more able to get us out.

My dh would never leave us and our daughters to the evil gruesome fate of the taliban

I think it's hard for us to understand how little power these women have.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Hardly a “western driven war” when Afghanistan powers were declaring war on the US and attacking for almost a decade before the US retaliated.

Not Afghani, Al Qaeda, supported by Saudi Arabia, finally reacted against the US for the millions the US wars have killed in the middle east and Asia.

What is unbelievable is that the US never took action against Saudi Arabia, knowing members of their royal family were behind their attack on September 11 and have kept supporting one of the most strict, Islamic, undemocratic and oppressive regimes against women in the Middle East.

But hey....it's not about women and democracy ? It's about American interests.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

So, the army that has surrendered will have also surrendered their billions of pounds worth of equipment that was provided by the west. Most likely they will be forced to train the Taliban up in how to use them on the threat of death or worse.

So… essentially we’ve armed the Taliban with billions of pounds of weaponry and provided them with trainers to be able to learn how to use it.

Terrifying.

In response to that and another posters points about the Air Force, and without getting too geeky, especially given the context, let’s not over state how much the Talibans will gain, certainly long term, from having this equipment.

Having fancy “kit” is all very well until you run out of spares..as the Iranians found out post their revolution…once you’ve run out of the ability to cannabilise some kit to fix the other kit you are grounded/immobilized.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

So, the army that has surrendered will have also surrendered their billions of pounds worth of equipment that was provided by the west. Most likely they will be forced to train the Taliban up in how to use them on the threat of death or worse.

So… essentially we’ve armed the Taliban with billions of pounds of weaponry and provided them with trainers to be able to learn how to use it.

Terrifying.

Pretty much. But that's what the West usually does, fuck up, leave a mess behind and creates a bigger problem.

Al Qaeda, supported by Saudi Arabia, finally reacted against the US for the millions the US wars have killed in the middle east and Asia

What is unbelievable is that the US never took action against Saudi Arabia, knowing members of their royal family were behind their attack on September 11 and have kept supporting one of the most strict, Islamic, undemocratic and oppressive regimes against women in the Middle East

Oh yes starting a war with SA would end well wouldn't it?

Especially as BLaden was a renegade from the Saudi Royal Family, its like accusing our Royal Family of being a bunch of child abusers because of the actions (allegedly) of Prince Andrew.

What millions of deaths & wars in ME/Asia before 9/11 ?

I can't ever understand the arguments of sending men first?

They send one, in the hope that he can later extract the rest from the vantage of safety. Why do we put the oxygen mask on the adult first, then the children? In the hope that one may survive, to then save the others.

That airport was always going to become a warzone. It would be madness to bring women and children there without confirmed visas and flights. Most of the young men we see at that airport today, those without confirmed visas and flights, will die at that airport. They'll die today, tomorrow, this week. They'll die badly.

My dh would never leave us and its probably me who in this situation would be more able to get us out.

If women can't leave the house, you wouldn't be much use at this late hour in proceedings. Regardless of all the June Osborne cunning in the world, none of us would be.

How many countries you want to invade to save them?

Why would you assume I wanted to invade any? Or that they shouldn't be left to deal with their own issues?

If you read my posts fully, pulling back from all this involvement is precisely what I am advocating, but so many are bewailing the fate of Afghani women that I'm wondering what exactly they want us to do about it which doesn't involve imposing our culture on others

My dh would never leave us and its probably me who in this situation would be more able to get us out

In disasters, its usually the men who survive, this is the finding of looking at 18 shipping disasters.

Analyzing passenger lists, logs and registers, Elinder and Erixon found that men actually have a distinct survival advantage

Out of the 15,000 people who died in the 18 accidents, only 17.8 percent of the women survived compared with 34.5 percent of the men. In three of the shipwrecks, all the women died, Elinder said

in other words Every man for himself

Panickingpavlova we live in a society that isn’t ruled by fear and mistrust of everyone

We live in a society where women have been able to be independent

What we think we would do is from our experiences in life not their experience which is a world apart

Do you not think the fathers, sons, husbands, brothers love the girls and women in their lives as much as we do here even if they have different opinions on a females role in society

Parents will be giving everything they have to get their sons out who have been in the government military because they know their fate there is no maybe

We aren't forcing our culture on them but we were there, the afghans doing the fighting, afghani women etc had some freedoms, it was as many who know far more about the country than any of us do, a low cost "occupation"

What will be the cost when Afghanistan becomes an area open for extremists and we see the utter devastation for women in this country, already rapes, girls sold to Taliban, education stopped, work halted.

Let alone the cost in British lives when or if we are forced to re invade.....

@jasjas1973 precisely.

We have lost hundreds of our young men and women in this 20 yr mess, with 1,000s more maimed for life. We should gone in hard, got the people we wanted to get and left. None of this mucking about for 20 yrs, in hit hard, get out.

Pics, I know what you mean but it's coming from an incredibly sexist view point and mysogenistic culture.

Would you be happy to be left behind? I dam well know I wouldn't and I said pp, it's me not dh who would be more likely to get us out!!

I wonder how many people hand wringing about this inevitable act were the same people who were horrified that the Americans kept Taliban terrosists locked up at Guantanamo?

The objections to internment at Guantanamo were because of human rights violations, not because of the principle, @JudgeJ.

The minute the victor in a conflict starts doing that, they lose their right to start telling the rest of the world what to do imo.

Oh why not it's a dichotomy isn't it, women apparently weak and helpless agaisnt male sex urges... To be stymied and kept at home but as soon as the shit hits the fan those weak women who need men to protect them, are left abandoned without men to the most hard line mysongyistjc group on earth?

Listening to a critical US perspective this morning was interesting, an Ambassador didn’t catch his name.

They went there for US and ally interests (of course, there has to be benefit) as an insurance against future extremism in west. I understand that viewpoint the trouble is he didn’t answer directly to how long to stay. If it is insurance then it’s not to be won, but indefinite or a very long time.

@Borderingonmadness

Al Qaeda, supported by Saudi Arabia, finally reacted against the US for the millions the US wars have killed in the middle east and Asia

What is unbelievable is that the US never took action against Saudi Arabia, knowing members of their royal family were behind their attack on September 11 and have kept supporting one of the most strict, Islamic, undemocratic and oppressive regimes against women in the Middle East

Oh yes starting a war with SA would end well wouldn't it?

Especially as BLaden was a renegade from the Saudi Royal Family, its like accusing our Royal Family of being a bunch of child abusers because of the actions (allegedly) of Prince Andrew.

What millions of deaths & wars in ME/Asia before 9/11 ?

No. It's better to keep supporting Saudi Arabia with money and arms while looking the other way to their undemocratic practices and their support in their war against the West. As long as America have "something" to gain, America will support them even if a few thousands of Americans were killed on the September 11 attacks.

But hey, they can keep looking the other way like the royal family is doing with Andrew.

We should imo actually try to negotiate

Didn't Donald Trump try that? I really don't think it's possible to negotiate with someone who considers stoning a woman to death or marrying a 12 year old an acceptable thing to do.

They did have women in the army. No reports at all of 60,000 dying? Where are you getting this from?

as soon as the shit hits the fan those weak women who need men to protect them, are left abandoned without men to the most hard line mysongyistjc group on earth?

I have a hard time understanding this too. Those women and children will be even more vulnerable left at home on their own surely? Perhaps all the men trying to leave are young and single though. It's hard to say.

Younger men will be sent abroad some to keep them alive and if they get out to send back money. It’s cultural for many young men packed off abroad to support the family home

I don’t doubt these women are perfectly capable but comparing what we would do is from our experience not the lives they are living

No. It's better to keep supporting Saudi Arabia with money and arms while looking the other way to their undemocratic practices and their support in their war against the West. As long as America have "something" to gain, America will support them even if a few thousands of Americans were killed on the September 11 attacks.

The UK pop look the other way too though. The money that floods into the London property market that boosts prices keeps many happy.

@Panickingpavlova

Pics, I know what you mean but it's coming from an incredibly sexist view point and mysogenistic culture.

Would you be happy to be left behind? I dam well know I wouldn't and I said pp, it's me not dh who would be more likely to get us out!!

I'd rather my brother got out and kept us fed until he could hopefully get us out from abroad, than that, best case scenario, he was shot in the street, my boy children slaughtered or starved, my girl children "married" off at 12, and I was forcibly married to a Talib fighter and taken to the hills to be raped and breed for the rest of my natural life.

It isn't sexist to have enough realism to be capable of understanding difficult choices made under extreme circumstances.

I actually find it really distasteful how so many effectively dehumanise these people by suggesting they are lesser beings than us, who feel no love for their families.