Struggling to Coe to terms with shooting in plymouth

[Thomasina79]

Not an AIBU I know, I’m sure we all are. This was a misogynistic man who identified as an ‘incel’. I’ve never heard of this phrase, but this man”s attitudes to women are common enough. Ok he hated his mum, not unusual, but no reason to kill her. But why kill the others, especially the child? This is all so sad and shocking and it seems that violence against women is becoming so prevalent again.

hahahahahahahahaha you don't know me and yet you judge me. Why am I not surprised?

Because you hate women. HTH.

@Meltinthemiddle, the incel movement isn’t just about women. Women are one of their primary focuses but ultimately it’s a group who blame society for how they feel and believe that they are powerless because of anyone who isn’t like them. It’s the ultimate perpetual victim mindset.

Tbh I’m not even sure that it’s right that a solution for that would come under mental health, it’s a complete re-education in life that’s needed.

The PREVENT programme basically works on the idea that identifying those most at risk of radicalisation can be brainwashed and manipulated to function within the confines of society before someone else gets to them. It’s not a comfortable thought, but ultimately that’s probably what’s needed in cases like these.

It’s not mental health per se, it’s not a chemical imbalance, it’s not going to be cured with suppression through medication and it’s unlikely traditional counselling will be successful once someone is deeply entrenched.

@Blossomtoes

I think we know the answer to that unfortunately, given Begum is brown and female and Davison is white and male

That argument really doesn’t hold water when we’ve got a Home Secretary who is brown and female.

Poor Shamima was wrongly labelled a terrorist for being brown

The problem here is people not taking white/male killers/Terrorists seriously, not brown terrorists being called terrorists

@Blossomtoes

The fact Priti Patel is Home Secretary does not disprove the fact that our government, society, and media still has huge problems with race and misogyny

Of course it doesn’t. It does disprove the brown and female argument though. The person who could repatriate the brown and female Begun is the brown and female Home Secretary who has chosen not to do so. The Home Secretary who removed her British passport is also brown. Race isn’t automatically at the heart of every issue, despite the current tendency to try and shoehorn it in wherever possible.

It's not about the fact that Priti Patel is brown but the fact that Begum is brown

The Incel movement has been around for a while now, fuelled by online media. Men like this have always existed but they have platforms fuelling each other anonymously. They have a poster boy, for a while an American who went on a murder spree.

As much as the internet can be a force for good, seeing women get help and people telling them about the Freedom programme on here for example . Overall I wonder if the extreme negative effects outweigh the good. As a junior researcher when microfiche and looking through books of bound journals was the norm I really welcomed and embraced the web in its fledgling form back in the early 1990’s. But the damage it does. Forums for the disaffected, porn, child sex abuse images so easily shared, body issues, competitive lifestyles. I think I preferred life before the web.

Shocking news, the innocent victims.
I know MH is taboo and you can't discriminate against a gun licence.
I'd heard of incle tosh before it's dangerous how they commicate online their hatred view online.
We need dedicated Internet police.
Sick bastard shooting a DC pushing her dolls pram.

Incels don't just want to have sex with women, they actively want to ABUSE them. That's the thing--read the quotes from his posts above.

He wants to be a powerful man ("Chad") who can rape his wife and get away with it, not a "Betabux" (weak man who financially supports his family) whose wife would call the police if he raped her. He wants to get 16 year olds knocked up so he can give their daughters to other incels. There is regular discussion of violence towards women, like hitting them and how they should submit in relationships.

GuyFawkesDay

Yup- nailed it.

It's not about the fact that Priti Patel is brown but the fact that Begum is brown

Dear God - seriously? Can you walk and talk at the same time?

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

hahahahahahahahaha you don't know me and yet you judge me. Why am I not surprised?

Because you hate women. HTH.

and again how do you know that?

@Flowers500

Incels don't just want to have sex with women, they actively want to ABUSE them. That's the thing--read the quotes from his posts above.

He wants to be a powerful man ("Chad") who can rape his wife and get away with it, not a "Betabux" (weak man who financially supports his family) whose wife would call the police if he raped her. He wants to get 16 year olds knocked up so he can give their daughters to other incels. There is regular discussion of violence towards women, like hitting them and how they should submit in relationships.

But it's not just about womenincels have a world view of there being powerful men (Chads and Tyrones) who demonstrate their power by having beautiful women that they abuse. They aspire to be Chadseither by being "redpillers" who work on improving themselves/harassing women to try to get takers, or "blackpillers" who give up and decide they can't get women anyway

Utterly lost for words.

@Auntienumber8 Like many I’ve followed developments around legislation of the internet, initially I fell on the side of protecting it as it was, but as time has gone on I’ve changed my view quite dramatically. I think it’s clear that society isn’t capable of self regulation and it’s basically a lawless wasteland doing immeasurable harm.

I don’t see another way to manage it other than with restrictive legislation and access unfortunately. Certainly not in its current form.

@NewlyGranny

Of course there's a sense in which every killer must be "crazy" to breach our society's boundaries around harming other people, but it's not helpful to blame a case like this in mental illness, is it? One in ten of us - or probably more - are mentally ill at some point in our lives, but we mostly don't go on the rampage. If people suffer mental illness it doesn't mean they are potential mass murderers who should be treated as pariahs.

This man radicalised himself online and he was given back his weapon and licence by the police.

His grossly entitled attitude to women in particular and the depth of his resentment towards the ones who weren't flinging off their clothes to gratify him sexually are part of the porn-sick culture that has sprung up in the last 20 years or so.

I do see his actions as misogynist terrorism fuelled by online hate sites. It's as if we were breeding our own Taliban from among the population.

Very well said

Michael Ryan...Our dad used to get served by him when Ryan worked in a local shop, and no way could anyone have known he'd have gone on a massacre.
These 'Incels' are obviously mentally ill.
Why kill innocent people?
It just doesn't make sense.

Elliot Rodger was the same, but Rodger had done nasty things like pushing a girl off a wall out of anger beforehand.

His parents paid for counselling, but it did no good.

@NorthernStarss

Utterly lost for words.

His first paragraph is disgusting. His second raises a valid point.

The monsters are telling us why. Do we listen?

@LemonSwan

Incel is a pity party.

An acquaintance I know calls himself Incel. Its very sad. He has convinced himself he will never get a girlfriend, never get a job, never move out.

He is very clever and a very high achiever at school, but was never one of the 'cool' kids.

I cant see him being top of the list for one night stand but he would be an ideal long term partner for many women. He is interesting, considerate and kind.

Its a real shame. Its like they are scared of failure so never try. They become too fragile and either just give up, or move to the bitterness and anger this shooter had.

Theres no solution. Only they can sort their lives out.

Reading Elliot Rodger's ''Manifesto'' after he went on a murderous rampage , it was a clear the {American} Police failed there, too.

Rodger had a police visit, his house was full of ammo and guns, but he was able to get away be seemingly being passive, polite and well spoken.

He then murdered innocent people.

It does really upset me when male violence by white males in specific is put down to "troubled family life" etc. and people trying to "understand" and sympathise with him.

I still haven't got past the same happening about male family annihilators, especially that utter fucking bastard teacher in Ireland who wiped out his whole family, Alan Hawe. Oh how they went on about his "depression" and how his state of mind caused him to sink into psychosis, the poor man - how he had been caught masturbating to porn at school (probably) and was addicted to porn, which caused "troubles in his marriage" - fuck OFF. He was a narcissistic prick who cared only about his social standing and his porn habit. And he killed his wife and sons because of it. Not cleanly, either. I truly hope there is a hell and he is in it. Same with all these bastards.

Definitely the second point.

@Blossomtoes

It's not about the fact that Priti Patel is brown but the fact that Begum is brown

Dear God - seriously? Can you walk and talk at the same time?

The point is that it's Begum who'd have been treated differently by Pitel if she were white, no matter what colour Pitel is. I thought my point was pretty obvious sorry not sorry you didn't quite understand it

It's awful, yes he's been failed massively like so many but there needs to be more help available locally. His employer would have helped with this had they known, they do have good systems in place - but you have to ask for it, or someone there needs to be aware of it. It's a very bleak time here in Plymouth, vigils were held last night but it will take a long time for the city, especially Keyham, to heal from this

Agree without any hope or a path anyone can become vulnerable to these groups. A place where they are understood, listened to and accepted.

@NorthernStarss

Utterly lost for words.

That's disgusting, and as a woman in Plymouth he can fuck the fuck off

BBC Radio 4 Today programme covered this well this morning.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000yt6j
Sir Peter Fahy, former Chief Constable of GMP at about 10 minutes in and further discussion around 2 hours in by a legal person and a woman from a violence against women and girls organisation.

Well worth a listen - apparently Incel culture and misogyny is acknowledged by authorities as a growing threat and terrorism in this country (not in USA) is defined as violence stemming from adherence to an ideaology.

I think this is going to get a lot more attention.

I thought my point was pretty obvious sorry not sorry you didn't quite understand it

Not only was it not obvious, it was wrong. Whereas mine passed right over your head.