Struggling to Coe to terms with shooting in plymouth

[Thomasina79]

Not an AIBU I know, I’m sure we all are. This was a misogynistic man who identified as an ‘incel’. I’ve never heard of this phrase, but this man”s attitudes to women are common enough. Ok he hated his mum, not unusual, but no reason to kill her. But why kill the others, especially the child? This is all so sad and shocking and it seems that violence against women is becoming so prevalent again.

The internet companies can very easily pick i looked at a sofa and bombard me with adverts from DFS but if i join extreme right wing misogynistic groups, they powerless to do anything about that????

The internet companies don’t care.
The police should care but they don’t. That’s the problem. They didn’t recognise this group as being a threat. They just thought they were a bunch of sad sack men whining about shit. The man involved here posted videos on YouTube and comments on Reddit. Hardly the ‘dark web’. Not exactly some underground dusty corner of the internet.

@LoislovesStewie it wasnt incoherent and sorry to hear about your DC's experience. Hope they are doing better. I think to some PPs, there is no difference between understanding and excuses. IME, those people tend to be the most judgmental and have least insight into themselves.

@NorthernStarss

Utterly lost for words.

That Tweet is stupid beyond belief.

The murderer had stated that he'd had opportunities with girls who were interested when he was slightly younger but HE had a 'mental block'. He was angry that he didn't have access to girls in the past few years due to working in a male-dominated environment. He wrote online that he didn't like his mum because she was 'untidy' and he wasn't sexually attracted to her friends. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he was ever mistreated by women or girls. Quite the opposite.

Women are not responsible for the actions of men.

Women are not responsible for the actions of men.

But on what basis is anyone responsible for the actions of any other of us?

@LoislovesStewie

I suspect that I am in a minority, but if he had a learning disability (ASD?) , or a personality disorder or undiagnosed psychiatric condition, then he has been let down. Yes, what he did was horrendous, my heart goes out to the deceased and their families. I admit quite freely that I cried when I saw that a 3-year-old had been killed. But I also feel that something catastrophic has happened to the perpetrator in his life; we don't KNOW what that might be, but I hope that over time there are some answers. If he does have a learning disability, and he does, by some reports, seem to have attended a special school when young, then that might give some clues. I can only tell you about my son, who has an ASD. He was badly bullied at school, and despite what he told the teachers, he was labelled the perpetrator of the bullying. He would sit all day with people doing awful things to him and when he lashed out he was punished. it seems that because the bullies were female or from an ethnic minority, they were deemed to be incapable of being bullies. Eventually, a well respected teacher saw the whole of an episode of bullying, and that stopped the bullies in their tracks. He was then seen, quite rightly, as the victim, but oh my god, did it take a long time! As a consequence of this my DS has been left with severe anxiety, I have spent the last 2 years trying to get some help, we were just getting somewhere when the pandemic hit, so we are back to square one. And I won't even start on the knock-on effects to the rest of the family. It seems almost impossible to get any serious help, waiting lists are just ridiculous and from where I am standing mental health services have always been a Cinderella service. When people with learning disabilities leave education, it seems that too often they are abandoned. No-one wants to know. Why am I saying this? Because we don't know what was happening; we don't know if the shooter has himself suffered. We don't know if he had some psychotic episode, we don't know if he just wanted to end his life and go out with some infamy. We don't know if he was evil or ill. Of course, he shouldn't go out and kill 2 men,2 women and a toddler. I am not defending his actions, but perhaps we should understand that there many people who don't fit into the model of society that we have, and they don't get any help either. I know all of this is a long, probably incoherent ramble. It's clearly my own frustration coming out, but I do think I might have a bit of insight into why some people just snap. Instead of condemning him, I want to await some answers from the professionals who should have dealt with him.

You've summed it up perfectly.

@AlternativePerspective

He was a psycho.

I have no idea about this movement he was apparently part of, but it’s worth remembering that he didn’t only kill females.

Whatever he was a part of, he made this decision for himself, not for others, and the only positive thing to come out of it is that he’s dead.

Its no comfort to anyone that he didn't only target women. Incels target women, and men who are 'successful' with women - husbands and fathers. Thats why he shot the Dad carrying his daughter.

Thats why he shot the Dad carrying his daughter.

I disagree. He shot anyone and everyone he came across indiscriminately. He shot a middle aged guy walking two dogs and a pensioner. He just didn’t care who it was.

@Balonzette

It seems from the videos posted of the killer that he felt desperately lonely, insecure, unloved, unwanted, and rejected. He felt like a failure and felt unlovable and physically disgusting. His father was also apparently a violent criminal so had didn't have that positive male role model. He seems like a really sad young man who desperately needed mental health support and treatment which his mother had been trying to get for him but which unfortunately is barely available anymore in the UK. The incel movement seems to attract people like this - they're just very unwell and/or very unhappy and this movement attracts them. I am in NO way excusing what he did, but rather trying to understand it. When someone reaches such a low, and has become so full of pain, which turns to rage and hatred, they are capable of awful, evil things. It's horrific. If we had adequate mental health care and resources in the UK, maybe his mother could have got him the help he needed long before he got to this point 😢

I completely agree with this, but despite this how on earth could anyone be so full of hate to kill an innocent 3 year old pushing her dolls pram ?

Its no comfort to anyone that he didn't only target women.
Incels target women, and men who are 'successful' with women - husbands and fathers. Thats why he shot the Dad carrying his daughter.
From the limited information available, the people he shot after his mother were random people that had the misfortune to cross his path.
It seems to be a have started off as a domestic incident, not an incel fuelled rage against women.

Apart from his mother those people were in the wrong place at the wrong time. We don't even know what led up to that attack. I just wish I hadn't read the details leading up to the little girls death in the Paper this morning. The media are just awful and literally have no respect for their families.

@EastWestWhosBest

I think the problem is that the incel movement hasn’t been taken seriously.

You have a young person who feels that they are weird and wrong. Like they don’t fit in. They don’t fit the social norms.
In the past they would have either changed as they matured and found their place or always been that slightly odd person that you know.
The problem is that now they go online and find groups of people that tell them that they aren’t weird or odd. That the whole of society that is wrong , not them.
For the first time they find companionship and belonging.
Remember this man was 22, he hadn’t just joined these groups last week. It’s not like this had only been a month. He’d certainly felt this way since school.
He was radicalised by this group. These people told him that the way he felt was acceptable and that doing what he did was the best answer.

It is no different to someone who is a follower of a religion/political group going online and finding people who reinforce the way they feel, encouraging them to take the next step.
They feel they don’t fit, no one understands. Then they find a group online who listens to them.

The incel movement is as serious as extremist religious or political views, as can be seen through what this man did.
It should be taken as seriously.

We have seen cases where people have posted much less ‘controversial’ views and have had a knock on the door from the police. Yet you can have groups like this encouraging and inciting violence which no one seems to have noticed.

This is spot on.

We need to get to these people before they start to feel weird/wrong/don't fit in and look at the reasons why they feel this way.

That’s not quite true—the times was reporting his neighbours saying he hated dogs, hence why he went for the pensioner with the dogs. He passed others that he ignored. It was semi-random yes but not completely

@LoislovesStewie

I suspect that I am in a minority, but if he had a learning disability (ASD?) , or a personality disorder or undiagnosed psychiatric condition, then he has been let down. Yes, what he did was horrendous, my heart goes out to the deceased and their families. I admit quite freely that I cried when I saw that a 3-year-old had been killed. But I also feel that something catastrophic has happened to the perpetrator in his life; we don't KNOW what that might be, but I hope that over time there are some answers. If he does have a learning disability, and he does, by some reports, seem to have attended a special school when young, then that might give some clues. I can only tell you about my son, who has an ASD. He was badly bullied at school, and despite what he told the teachers, he was labelled the perpetrator of the bullying. He would sit all day with people doing awful things to him and when he lashed out he was punished. it seems that because the bullies were female or from an ethnic minority, they were deemed to be incapable of being bullies. Eventually, a well respected teacher saw the whole of an episode of bullying, and that stopped the bullies in their tracks. He was then seen, quite rightly, as the victim, but oh my god, did it take a long time! As a consequence of this my DS has been left with severe anxiety, I have spent the last 2 years trying to get some help, we were just getting somewhere when the pandemic hit, so we are back to square one. And I won't even start on the knock-on effects to the rest of the family. It seems almost impossible to get any serious help, waiting lists are just ridiculous and from where I am standing mental health services have always been a Cinderella service. When people with learning disabilities leave education, it seems that too often they are abandoned. No-one wants to know. Why am I saying this? Because we don't know what was happening; we don't know if the shooter has himself suffered. We don't know if he had some psychotic episode, we don't know if he just wanted to end his life and go out with some infamy. We don't know if he was evil or ill. Of course, he shouldn't go out and kill 2 men,2 women and a toddler. I am not defending his actions, but perhaps we should understand that there many people who don't fit into the model of society that we have, and they don't get any help either. I know all of this is a long, probably incoherent ramble. It's clearly my own frustration coming out, but I do think I might have a bit of insight into why some people just snap. Instead of condemning him, I want to await some answers from the professionals who should have dealt with him.

@LoislovesStewie

I hear you. I have seen first hand how things can unfold in families with SEN children with lack of support.

My DC has been on the CAMHS waiting list for coming up to 2 years. There has been NO contact from them or anyone else during this time, only one letter to say that the waiting lists are very long. The only children being seen are those that have already attempted suicide or harmed themselves or others. I feel that by this time it's too late for a lot of kids. Early intervention is key. But also looking at why as society we are in this situation.

Hope things are better for your family x

@Iloveginger

*Its no comfort to anyone that he didn't only target women. Incels target women, and men who are 'successful' with women - husbands and fathers. Thats why he shot the Dad carrying his daughter.* From the limited information available, the people he shot after his mother were random people that had the misfortune to cross his path. It seems to be a have started off as a domestic incident, not an incel fuelled rage against women.

An incel fuelled domestic incident. His posts are earlier in this thread. He hated his mother for being old and ugly and only having old, ugly friends with no teenage daughters to set him up with.

@Blossomtoes

You do Understand these things are solely at the discretion of the Home Secretary don't you?

Yes, which is kind of my entire point.

Mine should have read "are NOT" 🤦🏼‍♀️

Early invention is definitely the key and ensuring they have a place and purpose in society, so they are not vulnerable to these disgusting groups.

@Meltinthemiddle

Early invention is definitely the key and ensuring they have a place and purpose in society, so they are not vulnerable to these disgusting groups.

As I said previously, this already is happening in theory. What it isn’t is particularly effective because identifying and re-educating a person is a politically unpopular move.

To implement an effective strategy would mean working around many privacy and autonomy issues. We like the technology but not the responsibilities that come with it or the methods it can be policed by.

Re-education also isn’t popular since it’s basically brainwashing and peoples automatics reaction is that this is a ‘bad thing’.

Mental health provision, even at its very best, doesn’t compensate for someone’s basic beliefs or motivations because those aren’t mental health illnesses.

There is no easy answer and very few difficult ones.

I think these things go right back though. Maybe starting at home with abuse, in school with bullying or not getting the educational support they need so struggling academically not thinking they are good enough. Not fitting in socially and bullied by their peers. All these things will be having an enormous impact on a developing mind and long term effects.

I live in Plymouth not far from where this happened, and I still cannot come to terms with it. The whole city are in shock and cannot believe this happened in what is usually a fairy quiet place.
My thoughts go out to all that lost their lives. Absolute tragedy.

I think its common to assume abuse is the driving factor, but its often just entitlement plus a lack of social skills.

Its pretty irritating for abuse survivors to see abuse being used as the reason for all kinds of negative behaviours.

I think these things go right back though. Maybe starting at home with abuse, in school with bullying or not getting the educational support they need so struggling academically not thinking they are good enough. Not fitting in socially and bullied by their peers. All these things will be having an enormous impact on a developing.
Or they're spoilt entitled wee twats who think their opinions on hating women are justified because they weren't blessed with good looks.
Sometimes it isn't what they didn't get, it's because they think they're entitled to everything, haven't heard NO in the home life causing a massive tantrum induced psychotic rage.

@Meltinthemiddle

I think these things go right back though. Maybe starting at home with abuse, in school with bullying or not getting the educational support they need so struggling academically not thinking they are good enough. Not fitting in socially and bullied by their peers. All these things will be having an enormous impact on a developing mind and long term effects.

I agree. By the time PREVENT get involved it's already too late. Early intervention starts in primary school.

@thedancingbear

Women are not responsible for the actions of men.

But on what basis is anyone responsible for the actions of any other of us?

Read the Tweet my comment was about for context. The screen grab is attached to the message I replied to.

@CustardCreamm

I live in Plymouth not far from where this happened, and I still cannot come to terms with it. The whole city are in shock and cannot believe this happened in what is usually a fairy quiet place. My thoughts go out to all that lost their lives. Absolute tragedy.

Me too custard. And although I do not know the families directly I know people who did. It should never have happened here. Plymouth is such as lovely, safe place to raise children it's so hard to believe anything like this could happen here 😔