Struggling to Coe to terms with shooting in plymouth

[Thomasina79]

Not an AIBU I know, I’m sure we all are. This was a misogynistic man who identified as an ‘incel’. I’ve never heard of this phrase, but this man”s attitudes to women are common enough. Ok he hated his mum, not unusual, but no reason to kill her. But why kill the others, especially the child? This is all so sad and shocking and it seems that violence against women is becoming so prevalent again.

@Lockheart yes me too but that's not the norm with most people and more importantly the people who could have brought her back didn't because of lack of empathy. I wonder what those same people think of Davison.

@NewlyGranny

Of course there's a sense in which every killer must be "crazy" to breach our society's boundaries around harming other people, but it's not helpful to blame a case like this in mental illness, is it? One in ten of us - or probably more - are mentally ill at some point in our lives, but we mostly don't go on the rampage. If people suffer mental illness it doesn't mean they are potential mass murderers who should be treated as pariahs.

This man radicalised himself online and he was given back his weapon and licence by the police.

His grossly entitled attitude to women in particular and the depth of his resentment towards the ones who weren't flinging off their clothes to gratify him sexually are part of the porn-sick culture that has sprung up in the last 20 years or so.

I do see his actions as misogynist terrorism fuelled by online hate sites. It's as if we were breeding our own Taliban from among the population.

This

We have to look at society. Of course mental health services are in many places inadequate but it’s totally possible he has cultivated these beliefs that lead him to these actions.

His actions were bad.

I think when faced with this we try and reason that if he was “crazy” and got help it would never have happened but maybe he just did a really really bad thing.

How the hell was he or indeed why is anyone allowed to have a pump action shotgun? He was accused of assault September and had his gun confiscated in December (8 weeks later) and this was returned in July ?? After an anger management course wtf? Any assault in your past ever no gun !!

Incel is a pity party.

An acquaintance I know calls himself Incel. Its very sad. He has convinced himself he will never get a girlfriend, never get a job, never move out.

He is very clever and a very high achiever at school, but was never one of the 'cool' kids.

I cant see him being top of the list for one night stand but he would be an ideal long term partner for many women. He is interesting, considerate and kind.

Its a real shame. Its like they are scared of failure so never try. They become too fragile and either just give up, or move to the bitterness and anger this shooter had.

Theres no solution. Only they can sort their lives out.

Normally I’d be the first to agree with this. In this instance the police took away his gun licence and then - unbelievably - gave it back again. That’s not a funding issue, it’s complete incompetence.

Is it incompetence, or did he meet all the conditions to have it back?

It's easy to judge with the benefit of hindsight. Why he was given it back and whether the police were correct to do so with the information available to them at the time will need to be examined.

MH resources are absolutely shocking. I went through a trauma (something was done to me) and I was suicidal. GP referred me to the MH team and despite being a total mess etc they told me I wasn’t bad enough to have any intervention and I needed to go and wait for counselling - the waiting list was 18 months for emergency case. Fortunately my work paid for immediate counselling that day but the resources out there are not fit for purpose

[quote FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]@Lockheart yes me too but that's not the norm with most people and more importantly the people who could have brought her back didn't because of lack of empathy. I wonder what those same people think of Davison.[/quote]
I think we know the answer to that unfortunately, given Begum is brown and female and Davison is white and male.

Isn’t it strange that when a brown person kills lots of people or commits a suicide attack like this one, nobody is looking for a back story, it’s just a picture of him shown with ‘outrage’!, ‘terrorist’!

Nobody is researching to see if he was bullied at school, didn’t have a girlfriend etc. So what’s the difference here? Why are the media going to such lengths to ‘understand’ this disgusting terrorist. I wonder.....

You’ve clearly never worked in a public body. All employees (afaik) do PREVENT training around identifying those most at risk of radicalisation. It’s a bust imho but you’re wrong in thinking there aren’t huge amounts of time and money spent researching and developing strategies to counter this problem in all areas of extremism. I recognise the points you’ve made as accepted warning signs for vulnerability to radicalisation.

I really feel this has got to me more than I might have thought because he killed a tiny child and did he kill her because she was a girl but then he has killed men too.

Something drastic has to change as women are being shit all over enough and in so many different ways.

If his shotgun licence was revoked last year before being reinstated, I'm assuming he was 20 or 21 when he got his first shotgun.
I mean WTF.
Why did he need a shotgun? He was living in a housing estate, not a farm or a game estate in Scotland.
I am the mother of 19 and 21 year old lads, ones a nurse the other is an IT professional (and gay). They are as far from terrorists or incels as you could imagine, but dear God, if they wanted a shotgun licence I'd question why and do everything in my power to stop that.
Incel "culture" needs to be dealt with in the same way as terror. They should be closing these idiots down, not issuing shotgun licences to them.

I think we know the answer to that unfortunately, given Begum is brown and female and Davison is white and male

That argument really doesn’t hold water when we’ve got a Home Secretary who is brown and female.

@Blossomtoes

I think we know the answer to that unfortunately, given Begum is brown and female and Davison is white and male

That argument really doesn’t hold water when we’ve got a Home Secretary who is brown and female.

The fact Priti Patel is Home Secretary does not disprove the fact that our government, society, and media still has huge problems with race and misogyny.

@Balonzette

It seems from the videos posted of the killer that he felt desperately lonely, insecure, unloved, unwanted, and rejected. He felt like a failure and felt unlovable and physically disgusting. His father was also apparently a violent criminal so had didn't have that positive male role model. He seems like a really sad young man who desperately needed mental health support and treatment which his mother had been trying to get for him but which unfortunately is barely available anymore in the UK. The incel movement seems to attract people like this - they're just very unwell and/or very unhappy and this movement attracts them. I am in NO way excusing what he did, but rather trying to understand it. When someone reaches such a low, and has become so full of pain, which turns to rage and hatred, they are capable of awful, evil things. It's horrific. If we had adequate mental health care and resources in the UK, maybe his mother could have got him the help he needed long before he got to this point 😢

Completely agree. This is someone who needed help and didn't get it which left him vulnerable and trying to find help in the wrong places. I don't think this was an attack on women he didn't specifically shoot at women let's not make it about that.

@Ponoka7

"Not every child with ACES will be a killer. Very few will. But there's always a pattern isn't there: not neurotypical. Chaotic background, often violent/abusive."

And male.

"It seems from the videos posted of the killer that he felt desperately lonely, insecure, unloved, unwanted, and rejected. He felt like a failure and felt unlovable and physically disgusting"

That sums up most disabled, non NT teens, as well as NT teenage girls. So the Incel culture played a big part then? It needs to be a criminal offence to be a member then, like far right groups.

@godmum56, think of it like the BLM movement. We know not all white people are racist but there's enough of an issue to make a stand which forces racism to be challenged across every part of society.

yes I absolutely agree...but if we wouldn't say "even "good" women can be the OW or the abusive Mum" and so on, then we shouldn't say it about men

So the cuts were they bad that someone sent him on an ' anger management course '
That must have money pumped into it from somewhere ? Then someone else gave him his license back too?
Why?

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

People like *@godmum56* really should be ignored on threads like these. Active MRAs monitor MN very closely (they HATE MN as they hate women contracting to talk to each other) and pike on in threads about men and it's so glaringly obvious who they are an what their agenda is, so absolutely best to ignore them

hahahahahahahahaha you don't know me and yet you judge me. Why am I not surprised?

I'm genuinely shocked by how little awareness there is of Incels amongst older generations--if you ask people under 25, or users of platforms like reddit they can tell you loads about it. It's a terrifying and growing ideology.

I stayed up last night reading the killer's comments: this is an ideology and a worldview, not "he needs a cuddle and 5 minutes with a therapist." Also he's categorically NOT obsessed with firearmsthat was not the motivation here. And he wasn't bullied, or claiming that. These horrible things are from the last few weeksthere are years of them, I can't scroll far enough to find the one about how he wants to get a teenager repeatedly knocked up so he can marry off the daughters to fellow incels...

Some of his comments (LAST MONTH):
--he is obsessed with sleeping with girls who are 16 or 17 (despite being considerably older) and with getting them pregnant.

--Rape: "when Chads forces himself of her when she says no spontaneously slaps and grabs her by the neck says shut the fuck up rips her clothes off and throws her on the bed she loves it when betabux does it she phones the police" chad=men women like, betabux= men who are exploited financially by women

talks about how women are too damaged after teenage years"my gut feelings tell me teen love is like no other love not to mention most woman past 20 are used and abused and properly incapable of loving like they did as a teen"

believes society and women's standards are behind his lack of sex"and just a theory...at 5-6 times more male virgins than female it really is becoming an epidemic for males I guarantee 50 years ago that ratio was probably more evenly distributed"

--lots of weird homophobic posts

--you're either going to be an Intel or a "betabuxer than woman abuse"

--"now I'm around mean and have been in male dominated environments my entire life that last time I spoke to a girl was 18 unless you count cashiers at shops most of my social experience is all makes and 40+ saggy old women I properly interacted with less than a dozen first my entire life"

--"did I say I go for young girls I don't pursue but if by luck I walked in my room and a 16 year old was spread wide with her legs open yeah of course"

--"my mother is an insecure narcissist about her looks who can't handle being around women better than her so all the women she is around are always fat ugly and old she has never had a female friend who wasn't extremely ugly as it makes her feel better and none of the ugly women she has had as 'friends' ever have daughters due to my mothers insecurity so my mother has never introduced me to anyone"

--"what a great friend and also could have taken your virginity but humiliated and emasculated you instead when you had little self esteem to being with You should have respected her fully and positively asked if you could move your hand across her face with a flat palm"

--"none of the woman saying he is beautiful would never suck his dick or do anything sexual with them now would they"

--"I don't mean it like a slave that just she is happy to be the women in a relationship and that for most average guys especially Intel low tier women aren't willing to do this anymore"

--even if he got a girl she wouldn't "fully submit to him in a relationship like they do an attractive male"

--lots of discussion of Incels and of "Chads" (these are guys who get women)

(you can do it here: camas.github.io/reddit-search/#{"author":"jake3572","resultSize":100} )

What @PussInBin20 said.
There is no point laying the blame at mental health services. Somebody needs to want to engage with services to get help, unless they are sectionable, for which there is a pretty high threshold.

The fact Priti Patel is Home Secretary does not disprove the fact that our government, society, and media still has huge problems with race and misogyny

Of course it doesn’t. It does disprove the brown and female argument though. The person who could repatriate the brown and female Begun is the brown and female Home Secretary who has chosen not to do so. The Home Secretary who removed her British passport is also brown. Race isn’t automatically at the heart of every issue, despite the current tendency to try and shoehorn it in wherever possible.

@Lockheart

Empathy, not sympathy. Everyone gets that's he's sad, lonely, angry. In no way should we feel sympathy. It's easy to sit here and feel sorry, but imagine actually witnessing what happened, or being one of the relatives, and people are concerned with the killer's circumstances

It is possible to feel sympathy or empathy for more than one person at the same time.

Also, let's remember this guy would've killed you, too. I am always dumbfounded when people feel bad for terrorists and mass murderers who kill completely indiscriminately and with zero remorse

Of course he would have killed me too. He would have killed my mother and my family and my friends, and you. Therefore it's in my (and your) interest to argue for a society that catches these people early and provides them with robust support so that you and I don't become victims.

That's literally what I said. They can be supported beforehand. I don't have sympathy for a crazed killer, though. That's when most people's sympathy goes out the window.

@jasminoide

I'm so bloody infuriated that people/the media are trying to "understand" his motivations, him being labelled as "lonely" etc. If he was brown he'd simply be called a terrorist, which he is in my book.

This 100%

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

As a side note isn't it interesting that sympathy for terrorists was never extended to Shamima Begum who was groomed, recruited and impregnated as a teenage girl and despite being a British Citizen has not been allowed to come home.

Yet a white boy who couldn't get laid and it's all "Oh bless him he seemed sad"

Stamina is scum like this guy, nobody should feel bad for either.

I find it a bit odd that we spend so much time arguing between ourselves as to whether it's mental health issues, incel ideology or whatever that's the cause.

Human beings are complex.

There is no 'one' root cause.

It can be absolutely true that...

• He was driven by incel ideology and
• He was very sad, lonely and needed help and
• He had MH issues and had received no support and
• Had an alcoholic, violent father and witnessed abuse and
• He was an entitled misogynistic arsehole.

There's no point arguing about which of these is the real reason he went on to kill people because it the mix of all of them that led him to that path.

It's rare because if any one of these factors was missing his life (and that of his victims) would have turned out differently.

This is someone who needed help and didn't get it which left him vulnerable and trying to find help in the wrong places. I don't think this was an attack on women he didn't specifically shoot at women let's not make it about that.

Fuck that - we absolutely make it about women, he was an incel.

His mum tried to get him MH help, but you can't force a person to help themselves.

When do we actually expect someone who's murdered a toddler to take personal responsibility. The blame culture we live in is terrifying, and absconding people of their actions this way serves nobody at all.

The sympathy towards this fuck up is unreal. Posters get a grip.
He was a murdering piece of shit, a terrorist. Shut up with this “incel” crap, making excuses for the low-life.