Struggling to Coe to terms with shooting in plymouth

[Thomasina79]

Not an AIBU I know, I’m sure we all are. This was a misogynistic man who identified as an ‘incel’. I’ve never heard of this phrase, but this man”s attitudes to women are common enough. Ok he hated his mum, not unusual, but no reason to kill her. But why kill the others, especially the child? This is all so sad and shocking and it seems that violence against women is becoming so prevalent again.

there is nothing to come to terms with op.
it was an awful event, thankfully rare.
stay angry at him.

@Lockheart

It needs to be a criminal offence to be a member then, like far right groups

Incel is a culture and a mindset, not an organised political group. There is nothing to be a member of. You can't police people's thoughts and opinions - we don't have thought crimes in this country (yet) - only how they express them.

I agree but they like extremist groups online their members should be monitored, catalogued as potentially dangerous men and NEVER given firearms. That would be a good start

Agreed, they need to be criminal offences.

And we also need to work ground up too, helping children who are the most vulnerable to getting sucked into this shit. Like we did/do with the kids we believed are vulnerable to radicalisation.

It's not a binary choice. Understand the psychology. Find those vulnerable. Intervene. Punish those who transgress too.

Where are all the posters excusing racist abuse with "aww that abuser was just mentally unwell and needs help"?

If someone commits racially motivated mass murder I'd say the same thing.

Anyone who is capable of killing multiple people whatever their reasoning - be it religious, racial, sexist - is not right in the head.

@Ponoka7

Why when men hate people from other races are they not excused as mentally ill, but when they hate women and children they are? Why are some hate organisations legal and some illegal?

Indeed.

Sadly the answer is no one gives a shit about the safety of women.

I do wonder if he had only killed adults and not a child if there'd be as much upset. I'm a bit annoyed at the narrative that he 'only' killed his mum in a 'thank goodness it was no one else' way.

Another thread in which some of the participants appear to be wilfully conflating 'excuse' with 'explanation'.

Two interesting discussion threads utterly ruined by this ridiculousness last week, no doubt this one will go exactly the same way.

I wonder if a fat unattractive woman carried out this crime if there'd be a 'poor sad lonely girl' narrative

Same question thatVanessa Kinsul's thread addresses:

the disparity in how certain boys deal with the loneliness and social exclusion that SO MANY experience is deeply troubling to me.

archive of thread: archive.is/RmCqh

twitter.com/Vanessa_Kisuule/status/1426177456684273665

Her original thread she quote tweets:

I find it interesting that ‘incel’ has become synonymous with angry boys who think they are owed sex when the incel term, and community, were initially pioneered by a woman for ALL genders who lamented a lack of sex/romance in their lives.
…
It is straight white boys, who are taught that the world is theirs, that cannot handle the world’s disdain or, shock horror, its indifference. But to them I say, welcome.…‘The unwanted’ is a club replete with members. These boys don’t want love, btw. They want status. If you read their online diatribes, they're obsessed with obtaining the attentions of hot, skinny, Aryan bombshells - retrograde archetypes straight out of 2005. They want the associative gravitas. The woman herself is collateral

archive of thread: archive.ph/mEsK5

twitter.com/Vanessa_Kisuule/status/1372267558301229057

I agree but they like extremist groups online their members should be monitored, catalogued as potentially dangerous men and NEVER given firearms. That would be a good start

I couldn't agree more, however in order to do this the government will need to stop cutting police and security budgets to the bone.

If we want to stop this happening again, we need to understand why it's happened this time.

We can say that he was a fucking despicable evil psycho - and we probably be right. But it's not enough - we need to try to grasp why he ended up like that. It's likely to be a complicated combination of factors.

None of that is to excuse what he's done. I'm glad he's fucking dead, and had he somehow survived, to use a cliche, I'd've pulled the lever myself.

@Lockheart

I agree and I'm ducking sick of the sympathy being portrayed for a man who shot a toddler in the face in front of her father.

It's possible to have sympathy for someone's circumstances whilst at the same time condemning their actions.

The second half of your sentence is complete fabrication and entirely unnecessary.

Empathy, not sympathy. Everyone gets that's he's sad, lonely, angry. In no way should we feel sympathy. It's easy to sit here and feel sorry, but imagine actually witnessing what happened, or being one of the relatives, and people are concerned with the killer's circumstances

Mental health support is needed but after the event has happened and you actually harm others, you deserve no sympathy. Shame there's no death penalty for crimes similar to this.

Also, let's remember this guy would've killed you, too. I am always dumbfounded when people feel bad for terrorists and mass murderers who kill completely indiscriminately and with zero remorse

Isn’t it strange that when a brown person kills lots of people or commits a suicide attack like this one, nobody is looking for a back story, it’s just a picture of him shown with ‘outrage’!, ‘terrorist’!.

Nobody is researching to see if he was bullied at school, didn’t have a girlfriend etc. So what’s the difference here? Why are the media going to such lengths to ‘understand’ this disgusting terrorist. I wonder.....

We’re hearing more about him, his issues and his anger at the world because he couldn’t get his act together and resented happier people than the victims.

Also, let's remember this guy would've killed you, too. I am always dumbfounded when people feel bad for terrorists and mass murderers who kill completely indiscriminately and with zero remorse

Exactly. Which is why understanding the circumstances that led up the killings is so vital. If society can get in before the tipping point is reached and stop it happening then we’ll all be safer. Talking about ‘evil’, ‘mentally ill’ etc won’t help after the fact.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

Isn’t it strange that when a brown person kills lots of people or commits a suicide attack like this one, nobody is looking for a back story, it’s just a picture of him shown with ‘outrage’!, ‘terrorist’!.

Nobody is researching to see if he was bullied at school, didn’t have a girlfriend etc. So what’s the difference here? Why are the media going to such lengths to ‘understand’ this disgusting terrorist. I wonder.....

We’re hearing more about him, his issues and his anger at the world because he couldn’t get his act together and resented happier people than the victims.

Western media is inherently racist and everyone knows it.

A couple of posts in and their are people desperate to make this about mental illness. I’m going to search some threads to see if the Manchester arena bomber had anyone seeking to understand his plight.

As far as I’m aware sane, happy people don’t strap suicide vests themselves. But we don’t give a shit about that it’s about the victims. This should also be the case here.

@Balonzette @lockheart agree and we might suspect if he'd grown up or been exposed to a different environment or time period, he'd have been radicalised to extreme religious action, IRA violence in the UK and Ireland in the 70s and 80s, extreme right wing/racist or left wing direct action and so on to belong and feel powerful somewhere.

For all those saying they (which might number 1000s/10,000s,100,00s in the UK alone) shouldn't be understood and supported with better health provision, will they all magically get better or, if jailed, magically rehabilitated rather than radicalised at 'university'.

Empathy, not sympathy. Everyone gets that's he's sad, lonely, angry. In no way should we feel sympathy. It's easy to sit here and feel sorry, but imagine actually witnessing what happened, or being one of the relatives, and people are concerned with the killer's circumstances

It is possible to feel sympathy or empathy for more than one person at the same time.

Also, let's remember this guy would've killed you, too. I am always dumbfounded when people feel bad for terrorists and mass murderers who kill completely indiscriminately and with zero remorse

Of course he would have killed me too. He would have killed my mother and my family and my friends, and you. Therefore it's in my (and your) interest to argue for a society that catches these people early and provides them with robust support so that you and I don't become victims.

As a side note isn't it interesting that sympathy for terrorists was never extended to Shamima Begum who was groomed, recruited and impregnated as a teenage girl and despite being a British Citizen has not been allowed to come home.

Yet a white boy who couldn't get laid and it's all "Oh bless him he seemed sad"

With all the best will in the world, his Mother may have tried to “get him mental health support”, however he was an adult and it is up to him to engage with any support services. She can’t make him.

Even if she paid for it privately, she couldn’t force it upon him. Who’s to say she sought out the services and he refused?

If people aren’t sectionable, then unfortunately it relies on them to seek the support and engage with it themselves.

I work in an area where adult parents are desperate for their adult children to receive MH services and I have to tell them this often. It’s very frustrating for them as they know what their “child” needs but they often don’t themselves.

It obviously doesn’t help that there are long waiting lists which may put people off.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

A couple of posts in and their are people desperate to make this about mental illness. I’m going to search some threads to see if the Manchester arena bomber had anyone seeking to understand his plight.

As far as I’m aware sane, happy people don’t strap suicide vests themselves. But we don’t give a shit about that it’s about the victims. This should also be the case here.

I have said repeatedly on this thread that no happy, healthy, sane person murders multiple people and commits suicide, regardless of their skin colour, motivation, or religion.

The drive to excuse and justify these acts - instead of holding the perpetrators responsible-makes me sick. And is actually a factor in why the cycle continues. Unless perpetrators know they will be vilified and appropriately punished, unless society actually values women and girls enough to say "no, we aren't going to make excuses for this any longer" - perpetrators have no reason to change.

Totally agree, and with @AngryWhompingWillow the excuses being made for a child murderers's actions are disgusting. Loads of people have bad childhoods, loads of people have mental health issues. They don't slaughter innocent people in the street.

This isn't an isolated incident. Go over to Relationships topic and you'll see thread after thread of men's horendous behaviour being blames on mental health issues/neurodiversity. As long as we keep doing this they have no reason to change and its the people around them who suffer for it.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil I suspect the destination (radical religion, incel/misogyny, extreme right or left wing, some IRA in the 70s and 80s) depends on the environment the person being radicalised is exposed. I don't recall seeing posts about murder/suicides and suicide bombers needing mental health support though I think that would be the case for some, those that don't fall within in layperson's terms or psychopath/sociopath/other profiles who will tend to try and exploit and radicalise others to suicide or use violence themselves without the suicide element.

Therefore it's in my (and your) interest to argue for a society that catches these people early and provides them with robust support so that you and I don't become victims.

Great plan in the long-term but in the short term there's men all over the Internet just like Jake who are rejoicing at his success, plotting to harm and destroy women further and no doubt feeling chivvied on that their cause is working - something needs to be done about this too, and now.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

As a side note isn't it interesting that sympathy for terrorists was never extended to Shamima Begum who was groomed, recruited and impregnated as a teenage girl and despite being a British Citizen has not been allowed to come home.

Yet a white boy who couldn't get laid and it's all "Oh bless him he seemed sad"

Actually I have huge sympathy for Begum and I strongly disagree with the majority who think she should be left to rot in Syria.

@FrankButchersDickieBow

It's beyond awful. The war against women is in full throttle at the moment.

It was highlighted the other day that there is an account on twitter, with over 93k followers, called 'girls getting hurt'.

It's you've been framed type stuff. But 93k people follow this page, specifically to watch females being hurt.

That really upset me.

Why they hell isn’t anyone liking or following it or posting things jailed for inciting violence. Racism is a crime. Why is misogyny not treated the same?

@Lockheart

I agree but they like extremist groups online their members should be monitored, catalogued as potentially dangerous men and NEVER given firearms. That would be a good start

I couldn't agree more, however in order to do this the government will need to stop cutting police and security budgets to the bone.

Normally I’d be the first to agree with this. In this instance the police took away his gun licence and then - unbelievably - gave it back again. That’s not a funding issue, it’s complete incompetence.