Struggling to Coe to terms with shooting in plymouth

[Thomasina79]

Not an AIBU I know, I’m sure we all are. This was a misogynistic man who identified as an ‘incel’. I’ve never heard of this phrase, but this man”s attitudes to women are common enough. Ok he hated his mum, not unusual, but no reason to kill her. But why kill the others, especially the child? This is all so sad and shocking and it seems that violence against women is becoming so prevalent again.

The point is simply that kids aren't born killers. They're made killers. Through their experiences as a child, and often linked into developmental and other disorders.

There needs to be a far more comprehensive assessment of children to help those who might be vulnerable to being persuaded down these avenues. I've taught them: they're flagged, SS alerted. Many are on the registers anyway as vulnerable but there's very little can be done. These kids brains are affected by their godawful childhoods. They cannot empathise as their seratonin, melanin and other chemicals are massively affected by what has happened to them.

Not every child with ACES will be a killer. Very few will. But there's always a pattern isn't there: not neurotypical. Chaotic background, often violent/abusive.

[quote AngryWhompingWillow]@Thomasina79 YANBU at ALL. Violence against women is just never going to stop sadly. Most men still think women are beneath them, and are less worthy. Even the good ones are not perfect; I know a few men who are all supportive of women being treated well, and claim to love women, and think they deserve only good treatment etc. etc...

But these same men don't like it when a woman knows more than them, when a woman achieves higher than them, and when a woman comes out with an opinion they don't like, and she refuses to back down.

Even my own DH, doesn't like it when I know something that he doesn't, or if I know the directions somewhere and he doesn't, and very often he refuses to take on board my suggestions about things. He doesn't like it when I think of something good and sensible, that HE didn't think of. Many 'decent' men I know are the same. All supportive of the 'ladies,' as long as they don't get ideas above their station, and think they are more clever than the men! [/quote]
so are "good" women perfect then?
It saddens me when all men are tarred with the faults and failings of a minority. We wouldn't want it said for instance that "all" women are capable of being the OW or a nighmare Mil so why do it to men?

Loads of killers suffered head injuries when children.

We should all be absolutely terrified of incel culture. It's not just a few sad virgins in their mum's basement whingeing online, it's a group of men systematically plotting to hurt many individual women in the hope that it has a big enough impact to hurt us as a group. They are radicalising our sons online to be part of their group and they rape, assault and intimidate with pride then brag about it online.

Look out for your sons and educate your daughters. Lobby your schools to have Prevent training to include incel information. Monitor your DC's online activity. And lobby your MP to make misogyny a hate crime

Oh and stop whining that "women are bad too". No, not to this extent they are and you need to focus that energy on tackling the men who are bad rather than crying about the 'good' men

"It's only now that we are understanding the impact of these "ACEs" (adverse childhood experiences). Some kids will have so many or have so little support that their brains are actually changed by their childhood."

I agree with to that, but then the everyday sexism and misogyny feeds in and we have men acting violently. Girls suffer as much trauma as boys, but don't do these acts. We have three child deaths in the main news and all three are at the hands of men, two by their fathers. Go on any local newspaper and there will be more killings of under 10 year olds. This is an entitled male issue, not just a mental health one and we shouldn't move away from that.

If we tackled sexism like we have racism, especially making the message part of male dominated sport, it would be a start. It shows that if the will is there, effective measures can be taken.

I can understand wanting to cut down on prison sentencing during Covid, but I've been shocked by the sentences given for violent crimes. Teenagers are committing more serious crimes than ever. But under this government, there won't be effective strategies.

I voted YABU because every woman should be aware of these groups and understand how these are linking and being backed by MRAs, who back other movements that are changing policies and laws.

@BrozTito

Loads of killers suffered head injuries when children.

Lots of people who suffered head injuries as a child don’t kill other people.

The excuses and attempts to justify on this thread are unreal. This guy killed five other people including a three year old girl and his own mother. There’s no excuse. None.

It takes a huge, concerted effort over a lot of years to tackle this. That's if it's even possible with the internet being as it is.

What a unholy mess.

Thanks for the Springer link @Cornettoninja. A valuable, if depressing, read.

I agree and I'm ducking sick of the sympathy being portrayed for a man who shot a toddler in the face in front of her father.

It's possible to have sympathy for someone's circumstances whilst at the same time condemning their actions.

The second half of your sentence is complete fabrication and entirely unnecessary.

@Crowtooyo

It's unforgivable. I don't care what mental health issues there are. It does not excuse killing innocent people. Ever.

Exactly this. People aren't stupid on here, or devoid of compassion. And we all KNOW that some people suffer serious mental health issues that ruin their life.

But I am sick of terrorists and monsters like this fucking arsehole who murdered these 6 people, being excused for their behaviour, because they have had a bit of a shit life, they have been treated badly by some people, and have suffered with their mental health.

MILLIONS of people have had a life with lots of problems in it, and people who treated them badly. They don't all go around murdering innocent people though.

The apologists make me sick. I'm going to leave the thread now, and hide it. It's making me fucking mad. Because I struggle to believe anyone can possibly excuse what this monster did.

I will just leave you with this, and a link to INCELS on wiki. See if you still think he is just a sad lonely little virgin then!

"Many incel communities are characterized by resentment and hatred, self-pity, racism, misogyny, misanthropy, and narcissism. Discussions of incels often revolve around the belief that men are entitled to sex; other common topics include idleness, loneliness, unhappiness, suicide, sexual surrogates, and prostitutes, as well as attributes they believe increase one's desirability as a partner such as income or personality."

"Opposition to feminism and women's rights is common, and some posters blame women's liberation for their inability to find a partner. Some incels believe there was a golden age in which couples married early, were strictly monogamous, and adhered to traditional gender roles. They believe that during this time, looks played less of a role in romantic pairings and men's "entitlement" to sex with women was never denied."

"While incels who hold this belief often disagree about precisely when this golden age occurred, they concur that it was gradually destroyed by feminism, the sexual revolution, women's liberation, and technological progress. Antisemitic beliefs are also regularly found on incel forums, with some posters going so far as to blame the rise of feminism on a plot masterminded by Jews to weaken the Western world."

So they blame everyone but themselves for their shit lives. Other more successful men, women, feminists, jews, their mother, everyone. Just not themselves!

And here's the link on wiki

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

I'm hiding the the thread now. It's making me sick to my stomach seeing people excuse/explain this monster's behaviour. And yeah they ARE excusing it. Call it 'explaining.' It's still excusing.

Even the Mens Activists have popped onto the thread now with their NAMALT bullshit. (eg. @Godmum56 )

I'll leave you all to it.

Meant to say (in my third paragraph) that millions of people have had a life with lots of problems in it and have suffered mental health problems But THEY don't go around murdering innocent people.

Please get an edit button MN.

I wonder if Jack Davison DID get 'treated badly' because he claims an ex and his mum are awful to him.

Is that the truth or his entitlement speaking? Maybe they just refused to be a pair of pushovers or maybe they didn't let him get his way with something and he thinks that's the same as being oppressed and treated badly by them

"Not every child with ACES will be a killer. Very few will. But there's always a pattern isn't there: not neurotypical. Chaotic background, often violent/abusive."

And male.

"It seems from the videos posted of the killer that he felt desperately lonely, insecure, unloved, unwanted, and rejected. He felt like a failure and felt unlovable and physically disgusting"

That sums up most disabled, non NT teens, as well as NT teenage girls. So the Incel culture played a big part then? It needs to be a criminal offence to be a member then, like far right groups.

@godmum56, think of it like the BLM movement. We know not all white people are racist but there's enough of an issue to make a stand which forces racism to be challenged across every part of society.

[quote wherethewildthingis]@Lockheart my view is neither childish or naive. It's the result of almost 20 years spent working first with offenders, and later in safeguarding children. I have been directly involved in 100s if not 1000s of cases involving serious violence by men against women and children. I have personally worked directly with men who have killed and they were not mentally unwell.
The drive to excuse and justify these acts - instead of holding the perpetrators responsible-makes me sick. And is actually a factor in why the cycle continues. Unless perpetrators know they will be vilified and appropriately punished, unless society actually values women and girls enough to say "no, we aren't going to make excuses for this any longer" - perpetrators have no reason to change.[/quote]
Agreed.

Where are all the posters excusing racist abuse with "aww that abuser was just mentally unwell and needs help"?

Sexism and misogyny online and in real live must be treated as hate crimes. Sick of these entitled male nonsense.

@Ivchangedmynameforthis

Iv name changed for this post but the thing that stood out for me was his mother trying to get help and no one listening. Iv been that mother albeit not on this level (yet). I have spent years, since my DC was very small trying to get help for his mental health issues and facing a brick wall every time. He was once investigated by CAMHS and discharged as he is highly intelligent and knew how to play the game. We are now pretty much NC (not my choice) and I will never stop fighting for him but this is my worst nightmare.

Mental health services are so massively under resourced I agree.

Not read the full thread but think Balonzette’s analysis re this situation is particularly spot on

@GuyFawkesDay

It takes a huge, concerted effort over a lot of years to tackle this. That's if it's even possible with the internet being as it is.

What a unholy mess.

I agree. I think the internet has a lot to answer for in regards to the state of the worlds mental health. It can be an excellent tool for support but it’s also a minefield of entrenchment and cheerleading without limit. Incels, pro-ana, self harming etc. All have unregulated internet communities that promote not support. I don’t know the answer but I do know that’s a genie that’s not likely to go back into the bottle.

At the very core of it is a rotten unequal society. There’s no cure for hopelessness if you live in a society that you simply will never excel in and can’t escape from. We have no plan b for those people.

It seems from the videos posted of the killer that he felt desperately lonely, insecure, unloved, unwanted, and rejected. He felt like a failure and felt unlovable and physically disgusting. His father was also apparently a violent criminal so had didn't have that positive male role model. He seems like a really sad young man who desperately needed mental health support and treatment which his mother had been trying to get for him but which unfortunately is barely available anymore in the UK

Yet they gave him a gun license

People like @godmum56 really should be ignored on threads like these. Active MRAs monitor MN very closely (they HATE MN as they hate women contracting to talk to each other) and pike on in threads about men and it's so glaringly obvious who they are an what their agenda is, so absolutely best to ignore them

It needs to be a criminal offence to be a member then, like far right groups

Incel is a culture and a mindset, not an organised political group. There is nothing to be a member of. You can't police people's thoughts and opinions - we don't have thought crimes in this country (yet) - only how they express them.

*congregating not contracting

Why when men hate people from other races are they not excused as mentally ill, but when they hate women and children they are? Why are some hate organisations legal and some illegal?