Struggling to Coe to terms with shooting in plymouth

[Thomasina79]

Not an AIBU I know, I’m sure we all are. This was a misogynistic man who identified as an ‘incel’. I’ve never heard of this phrase, but this man”s attitudes to women are common enough. Ok he hated his mum, not unusual, but no reason to kill her. But why kill the others, especially the child? This is all so sad and shocking and it seems that violence against women is becoming so prevalent again.

It's beyond awful. The war against women is in full throttle at the moment.

It was highlighted the other day that there is an account on twitter, with over 93k followers, called 'girls getting hurt'.

It's you've been framed type stuff. But 93k people follow this page, specifically to watch females being hurt.

That really upset me.

@FrankButchersDickieBow

It's beyond awful. The war against women is in full throttle at the moment.

It was highlighted the other day that there is an account on twitter, with over 93k followers, called 'girls getting hurt'.

It's you've been framed type stuff. But 93k people follow this page, specifically to watch females being hurt.

That really upset me.

That is disgusting. Why is this stuff not being removed from these sites?! Makes me so angry.

It seems from the videos posted of the killer that he felt desperately lonely, insecure, unloved, unwanted, and rejected. He felt like a failure and felt unlovable and physically disgusting. His father was also apparently a violent criminal so had didn't have that positive male role model. He seems like a really sad young man who desperately needed mental health support and treatment which his mother had been trying to get for him but which unfortunately is barely available anymore in the UK. The incel movement seems to attract people like this - they're just very unwell and/or very unhappy and this movement attracts them. I am in NO way excusing what he did, but rather trying to understand it. When someone reaches such a low, and has become so full of pain, which turns to rage and hatred, they are capable of awful, evil things. It's horrific. If we had adequate mental health care and resources in the UK, maybe his mother could have got him the help he needed long before he got to this point 😢

I was really upset when I found out a 3-year-old had been killed. I know that sounds OTT, but my DS is nearly 3 and it just made it feel so close to my heart. I can't imagine what her mum is going through, with her dad shot as well.

Something needs to change. Whenever I think women are making advancements in equality I come across examples like this and new groups "incels" that are so against women.

something needs to be done urgently about these incels

I see him as having been radicalised and therefore this WAS terrorism.

He was a psycho.

I have no idea about this movement he was apparently part of, but it’s worth remembering that he didn’t only kill females.

Whatever he was a part of, he made this decision for himself, not for others, and the only positive thing to come out of it is that he’s dead.

It is disgraceful that his mother had tried to get him help several times and nothing was done.

Regardless of what you think of him as an individual, if he had been properly supported then 6 people may still be alive today.

As @Balonzette says, the gunman felt the whole world was against him and that he had no hope or possibility of having the life he wanted.

We don't know what particular incident triggered the killing of his mother, but after that, for him there was no way back, and it appears he just took down as many people as he could, possibly just in an overflow of hatred and resentment of everyone else living happy lives. His victims, after his mother, do not appear to have been specifically chosen as women, just unfortunate people he happened to come across on his rampage.

Whatever he was a part of, he made this decision for himself, not for others, and the only positive thing to come out of it is that he’s dead.

Given that he took 5 others with him, that there will be a family grieving for their brother, and no-one to face justice for the killings of the 5 victims, I'm not sure this is a positive.

I agree it is terrorism. If he was motivated by a hatred of Jewish people and believed they’d ruined his chance of happiness and then went on a rampage that would be ideologically motivated - so is this. It’s the same blind spot that means that violence against women isn’t a hate crime but violence against gay people, trans people etc is.

I had to think about this too because obviously he was killing just anyone but the motivation behind it is what matters. For example Islamist terrorists randomly go about killing people, including fellow Muslims.

If we had adequate mental health care and resources in the UK, maybe his mother could have got him the help he needed long before he got to this point

You’ll never stop EVERY angry crazy disaffected individual from criminal acts. But you’re right, this is the way to reduce the number of them. Talk of Incel (a few thousand pathetic lonely men whinging online) as a “ terrorist group” is just unhelpful sensationalism. The solution is boring as fuck - persuade the public that better services are necessary and get rid of Tories and vote in a government that is willing to invest more public money in mental health and social care.

Let's not latch onto the potential for mental health issues being a reason for this. That is not known, its just speculation at this point from a neighbour.
In any case these "mentally unwell" violent males who take lives in this way never lose control and attack a group of large, burly men who can fight back, do they? No. They go for women and children. Or they also use a gun, like this one did, to make sure those they kill cannot defend themselves.
It's internalised mysoginism that makes us leap to "he must have been unwell". No-we need to recognise that these types of men are actually common and they do what they do because they choose to. No other reason

@FoxgloveSummers
Every nutter to ever fire a gun has an “ideology”. If the sad incel groups weren’t around he’d have wasted his hours on some other shit Internet forum. Don’t glamorise the actions of a sad and pathetic and mentally messed up individual who was acted entirely alone without any financial aid from any organisation etc

@wherethewildthingis

Let's not latch onto the potential for mental health issues being a reason for this. That is not known, its just speculation at this point from a neighbour. In any case these "mentally unwell" violent males who take lives in this way never lose control and attack a group of large, burly men who can fight back, do they? No. They go for women and children. Or they also use a gun, like this one did, to make sure those they kill cannot defend themselves. It's internalised mysoginism that makes us leap to "he must have been unwell". No-we need to recognise that these types of men are actually common and they do what they do because they choose to. No other reason

No sane person guns down their mother and several strangers.

Doesn't matter if you're an Islamic terrorist or an incel. None of these people are healthy.

I'm so bloody infuriated that people/the media are trying to "understand" his motivations, him being labelled as "lonely" etc. If he was brown he'd simply be called a terrorist, which he is in my book.

I read his mother recently tried to get help for his mental health, including adhd. His father was a violent drunk so it seems likely he grew up seeing his mother on the receiving end of abuse. Even if his dad didn’t beat him, he’d have been terrified.

His gun licence was only returned a month ago. It was removed for a year after he assaulted someone. He completed one of those mandated anger management courses as a result of which, was considered safe with a gun.

My experience of working with men who completed anger management courses hasn’t filled me with confidence.

It’s shameful that m.h. and other support services have been decimated. We need investment in public services. I’m in no way excusing this individual from his actions. Joining an online group so you can talk to others who blame everyone but themselves for their difficulties is self rewarding.

'He seems like a really sad young man who desperately needed mental health support and treatment'

A really sad young man? He has murdered 5 people. There are so many sad, lonely people who are in need of mental health support who will never harm anyone.

I think there comes a time when we have to stop trying to understand these men and frame the discussion around the help he might have needed.

No, he was a violent male. We have a significant problem with men who feel entitled to go around harming others, abusing people, raping women, committing crimes. They are seemingly everywhere. They do not need better mental health support.

Of course there's a sense in which every killer must be "crazy" to breach our society's boundaries around harming other people, but it's not helpful to blame a case like this in mental illness, is it? One in ten of us - or probably more - are mentally ill at some point in our lives, but we mostly don't go on the rampage. If people suffer mental illness it doesn't mean they are potential mass murderers who should be treated as pariahs.

This man radicalised himself online and he was given back his weapon and licence by the police.

His grossly entitled attitude to women in particular and the depth of his resentment towards the ones who weren't flinging off their clothes to gratify him sexually are part of the porn-sick culture that has sprung up in the last 20 years or so.

I do see his actions as misogynist terrorism fuelled by online hate sites. It's as if we were breeding our own Taliban from among the population.

Exactly Fleek I agree with you entirely. They do not need better mental health support. What they need is locking up where they will no longer be a danger to women and children.

It is extremely upsetting to know both that his mother had tried desperately to get him help and that whatever his grievance with his mother, he felt the need to kill random strangers, without any thought of the destruction to lives left behind. The death of the little girl in particular is extremely upsetting.

He may have been motivated by being an incel but I want to echo that taking the only known person to him (his mother) out of the equation, 50% of his victims were male so it appears sex wasn't his motivation in choosing his victims.

Violence against women does seem to be increasing and is extremely worrying, but we also need to remember there are families grieving their male relatives who were just walking down the road and their deaths are no less tragic.

@jasminoide

I'm so bloody infuriated that people/the media are trying to "understand" his motivations, him being labelled as "lonely" etc. If he was brown he'd simply be called a terrorist, which he is in my book.

Agreed

@Fleek

'He seems like a really sad young man who desperately needed mental health support and treatment'

A really sad young man? He has murdered 5 people. There are so many sad, lonely people who are in need of mental health support who will never harm anyone.

I think there comes a time when we have to stop trying to understand these men and frame the discussion around the help he might have needed.

No, he was a violent male. We have a significant problem with men who feel entitled to go around harming others, abusing people, raping women, committing crimes. They are seemingly everywhere. They do not need better mental health support.

You do realise both can be true, right? Murdering 5 people doesn't preclude you from being sad or lonely.

We absolutely need to understand why these things happen so we can stop them. If you don't want to understand, you'll never stop it and more people will die.

Personally I'd rather have a society that identifies that there are issues and addresses these individuals before they commit mass murder, but you do you. Personally I'd rather address the cause and not the symptoms.

Talk of Incel (a few thousand pathetic lonely men whinging online) as a “ terrorist group” is just unhelpful sensationalism.

You're underestimating the scale of this problem. It's not just a few thousand men - it's estimated as hundreds of thousands worldwide (though mainly in the Anglophone sphere). And it's a rapidly growing movement, which is actively radicalising young men online. I've even started to notice it amongst some of my students in the last few years.