“Incel” AIBU to think forums should be banned?

[SteveArnottsWaistcoat]

Following from the horrible tragedy of the mass shooting in Plymouth, I had never heard of Incel before and had to Google what it was.

I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men. (I’m not going to link to the one I found but if you put in Incels then a dot and then net you’ll find it. The description made it sound like a support network but the content is very different)

Now I could be being totally naive here, I’m sure there are forums out there with all kinds of hate speech against everything going, but some of the stuff I read on there made me wonder how that kind of thing is allowed in such an open public way!

Is it freedom of speech? AIBU to think it shouldn’t be allowed? Do you think these websites are monitored?

Nasty misogynistic hate speech is allowed everywhere. I’m surprised you haven’t noticed!!

You couldn't make them disappear without shutting down lots of other things that some people disagree with too, like this site for example.

The idea of looking at a person's internet history is a non-starter, people can use VPNs or disposable email addresses to mask their tracks. How long should ISPs keep the records for anyway? Remember they'd have to keep everybody's records, probably indefinitely. "Nothing to hide" doesn't equal "nothing to fear" because what's legal today might be frowned upon or criminal tomorrow.

"Banning" hate speech and threats of violence is missing the point - these things are already illegal. You may as well say that people without a licence should be banned from driving - they're already not allowed.

In my view all the Plymouth incident does is show that our gun laws either need tightening or loosening. I've not yet heard what the justification was for the attacker to own a shotgun, but I can't see a legitimate reason for anyone of that age to have a weapon. Basically very few people need guns outside of the police and armed forces. Maybe farmers have an excuse in some cases.

The alternative (my preference) would be to solve the problem by relaxing the gun laws. If members of the public had been armed in Plymouth, it's possible someone could have taken him down before he'd killed all of his victims. Obviously assault weapons aren't needed, but a few handguns, owned by people trained to use them, would have helped massively. I think at least two lives could have been saved.

@SteveArnottsWaistcoat

Following from the horrible tragedy of the mass shooting in Plymouth, I had never heard of Incel before and had to Google what it was.

I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men. (I’m not going to link to the one I found but if you put in Incels then a dot and then net you’ll find it. The description made it sound like a support network but the content is very different)

Now I could be being totally naive here, I’m sure there are forums out there with all kinds of hate speech against everything going, but some of the stuff I read on there made me wonder how that kind of thing is allowed in such an open public way!

Is it freedom of speech? AIBU to think it shouldn’t be allowed? Do you think these websites are monitored?

A few things here.

1. Does banning achieve the desired effect?
   What is the desired effect? To stop communication between individuals who share these type of views.
   The problem being if you ban on certain places it merely moves the issue to closed groups or encrypted spaces where its more difficult to monitor.
   Banning rarely actually solves the problem. It just relocates it. That can make it harder to deal with rather than stopping the issue.

2. Is the problem sharing of views or the environment which creates people with these views?
   People turn to extremism of all kinds for largely the same reasons. They lack opportunities and are often isolated or marginalised in society for a reason. Why aren't we looking more at social issues underlying why people feel isolated / lacking purpose?

3. Appeals to authority about concerns of the risk of violence to women aren't taken as seriously as they should be.

4. Mass shooting have a common theme. We should talk about this common theme. Cos we could say "guns dont kill people rappers do" like Americans and completely miss the point.

This most recent incident highlights a few things well: the internet beyond our borders and our (in)ability to control / restrict that being exceptionally difficult (especially in tech savvy circles), the failure and lack of adequate support/social structures for vulnerable adults after they've left the school system, poor checking for gun licences even in the uk.

More than this the normalisation of porn and poor attitudes to women at a low level mean that unusual levels of concern aren't identified as problematic and are dismissed as 'just a domestic incident' or nothing to be concerned about.

One of the common themes of mass shootings is there is a pattern of behaviour in the run up to a major incident. Things that authorities are aware of.

They don't come out of nowhere. They have a pattern of escalation.

There is almost always an incident that predates a mass killing and its usually against a female family member.

And you find as soon as you have the benefit of hindsight, an out cry about why was that ever ignored.

Banning something on the internet, is a simplistic knee jerk solution that people who want to reduce the issue to something that can be easily 'cured' turn to. The problem is it simply doesn't address the issue that content on the Internet is a symptom of a wider problem over and above a leading cause of it. It acts merely as an amplifier rather than a creater. And if the problem isn't dealt with it merely moves to other channels. It does not just 'go away'.

The alternative (my preference) would be to solve the problem by relaxing the gun laws. If members of the public had been armed in Plymouth, it's possible someone could have taken him down before he'd killed all of his victims. Obviously assault weapons aren't needed, but a few handguns, owned by people trained to use them, would have helped massively. I think at least two lives could have been saved.

This is where this ends up: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46473321

Sorry, but if you think the answer to the (in the UK, vanishingly rare) event where someone goes postal with a gun, is to place more guns into circulation, then you are a fucking nutcase.

@Branleuse

Loads of internet content is policed and banned so absolutely this needs to include incel stuff

I agree. And anti-trans stuff too.

I mean, I obviously don't agree, but you get the point.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@Mummyoflittledragon I think the point is/was that you can't go around banning things just because you don't like them. In essence there are many people who would be happy to see the end of Mumsnet and the poster was just pointing out that some of the discourse on here (though not in the extremes of incel forums) could be considered highly offensive towards certain groups c.f. trans threads.[/quote]
Oh I see. I Sorry @PlanDeRaccordement I went a bit off at the deep end there. I was really confused with that comment, especially from someone so moderate and level headed.

The problem with censorship is who controls the censors.

We make the naive assumption that those making censorship decisions will always have our best interests at heart.

Power concerntrated in authority without oversight and accountability is dangerous.

Censorship ironically has the effect of often stopping the ability to have effective oversight and accountability in other areas unrelated to the area targetted.

A good example is how anti terrorism laws have been used in areas way beyond where they were ever intended to be used.

Excellent idea

It's a shite idea.

A VPN can easily mask internet usage. A browser such as duckduckgo doesn't even save history.

Failing either of those people can use the tor network.

The alternative (my preference) would be to solve the problem by relaxing the gun laws. If members of the public had been armed in Plymouth, it's possible someone could have taken him down before he'd killed all of his victims. Obviously assault weapons aren't needed, but a few handguns, owned by people trained to use them, would have helped massively. I think at least two lives could have been saved.

It’s only Monday, but that’s already the most moronic thing I’ll read all week.

@RedToothBrush Your post is thought provoking, thank you.

Fgs,

Firstly, an internet history is only as useful as the lack of techy no how the individual has. And the more nefarious the activity, the less chance you have of nailing them to an incriminating web history. If it were that fucking simple no paedophile would be roaming the streets after having accessed their material.

The journalist found it in seconds because he was given that ONE job. Do let me know where the police get the budget for several internet searchers (there are more than a few gun licences out there), or which under-staffed policing department you would suggest these people are drawn from @Cyw2018

‘I know, let’s blame the police and suggest solutions without knowing a fucking thing about policing, cyber crime or budgets’. I think you should go for PCC, you have some bright ideas

@Mummyoflittledragon
Thank you for apology, @VladmirsPoutine got what I was trying to say.
Things that are passed off as lighthearted can be made to look sinister by anyone, take for example the murder my DH and bury him under the patio thread. Sinister or keyboard cowboy joking.....hard to tell at times from the outside.

Ten women have been shot dead in the last nine years by partners who were allowed to hold gun licences despite claims of domestic abuse or severe mental health problems, it has been revealed.

Data shows six cases where police returned guns to owners, despite allegations of domestic abuse, or where a GP had flagged serious concerns over mental health, the Times reports.

This would be much more effective than an internet ban.

Dh works in internet security. It never fails to shock me how little people know about the subject to any level.

Pandora opened the box.

Number 1. If you want the best people in the area, you have to pay the wages to match.

Otherwise you are going to lose to crime and the margins of society.

@Kanaloa

Also, someone who is angry at feminism because women won’t sleep with him IS a woman hater. He thinks he’s entitled to have sex with women and is angry at the feminist movement because they’ve denied him that.

Yep. Hateful creeps who are advocating state-mandated rape. This particular incel has a PhD, apparently.

@DismantledKing

The alternative (my preference) would be to solve the problem by relaxing the gun laws. If members of the public had been armed in Plymouth, it's possible someone could have taken him down before he'd killed all of his victims. Obviously assault weapons aren't needed, but a few handguns, owned by people trained to use them, would have helped massively. I think at least two lives could have been saved.

It’s only Monday, but that’s already the most moronic thing I’ll read all week.

Probably posted by an incel who has too many mental health problems to get a gun licence. Otherwise, that poster's comment is unfathomable.

@SteveArnottsWaistcoat

Following from the horrible tragedy of the mass shooting in Plymouth, I had never heard of Incel before and had to Google what it was.

I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men. (I’m not going to link to the one I found but if you put in Incels then a dot and then net you’ll find it. The description made it sound like a support network but the content is very different)

Now I could be being totally naive here, I’m sure there are forums out there with all kinds of hate speech against everything going, but some of the stuff I read on there made me wonder how that kind of thing is allowed in such an open public way!

Is it freedom of speech? AIBU to think it shouldn’t be allowed? Do you think these websites are monitored?

Re: ’I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men....’

I bet if you looked around the internet, you’d probably find open forums with really vile things being said against men by angry women, too... It’s the world we live in.

Re: ’I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men....’

I bet if you looked around the internet, you’d probably find open forums with really vile things being said against men by angry women, too... It’s the world we live in.

When was the last tome you heard about a woman roaming around the street with a shotgun because she didn't feel she got enough attention from men?

Please show me where you have seen posts like this from women, advocating state mandated rape Handmaid's Tale style to appease men who aren't successful in their love lives?

I'm sorry but it's incredibly rare that women behave like this, there are not communities online of women plotting massacres against men because they won't fuck them. To pretend it is equivalent is absurd.

@VioletSand

Re: ’I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men....’

I bet if you looked around the internet, you’d probably find open forums with really vile things being said against men by angry women, too... It’s the world we live in.

When was the last tome you heard about a woman roaming around the street with a shotgun because she didn't feel she got enough attention from men?

Please show me where you have seen posts like this from women, advocating state mandated rape Handmaid's Tale style to appease men who aren't successful in their love lives?

I'm sorry but it's incredibly rare that women behave like this, there are not communities online of women plotting massacres against men because they won't fuck them. To pretend it is equivalent is absurd.

Well yes, when indeed did I hear about a woman roaming the streets with a shotgun....? the answer is never. However, that terrible incident last week was the first time I’d heard about a man doing it (under the banner of the ‘incel movement’) so I would argue it is incredibly rare across both gender groups.

P.S. You are correct when you say: ‘there are not communities online of women plotting massacres against men because they won't fuck them.‘ But as someone points out on page one of this discussion, if a woman joins a ‘dating site’ asking for ‘no-strings’ sex, she will be inundated with offers, the same doesn’t apply when the genders are flipped. Not sure why, possibly to do with biology, or maybe society, but whichever it is, it’s relevant to this debate.

As is this: I read a book recently about the dreadful case of the Yorkshire Ripper. It looked at the problems the police had catching him and there were several including it happened just before I.T. and DNA tracing came on the scene, there was a poor attitude towards sex workers at the time, (amongst police and wider communities) but most pertinent as regards this discussion: when the police tried to track men driving into and out of red light areas in these northern towns, they were overwhelmed by the numbers. So men wanting sex without all the emotional stuff, is nothing new.

The difference between then and now? Quite simple: the world wide web.

YouTube is one of the worst platforms for uncle breeding. And I am never shocked when it's revealed these terrorist incels made YouTube videos.

So many comments on YouTube are ridiculously sexist and considering a lot of users are child-age it's a very worrying trend that they have these opinions at such a young age and that they aren't pulled up on it.

@VladmirsPoutine

How do you suggest we 'police' those forums?

I'm in a menopause FB group and Facebook manage to police that very well. If there's any whiff of 'men bashing' then FB are on them like a ton of bricks. The admins are always warning posters not to 'men bash' as they are worried that the group will be closed down.

@PineapplePanda

YouTube is one of the worst platforms for uncle breeding. And I am never shocked when it's revealed these terrorist incels made YouTube videos.

So many comments on YouTube are ridiculously sexist and considering a lot of users are child-age it's a very worrying trend that they have these opinions at such a young age and that they aren't pulled up on it.

*incel not uncle...

You can’t ban them , especially on the basis of some fast googling
As vile as they are we can’t police hatred

They banned pro-ana and pro-mia forums after public decided that allowing people to openly encourage girls into serious eating disorders was harmful, and one by one they closed any they could find.
Its not perfect as obviously they would still exist if people really did go out of their way to find them, but it made it nearly impossible for people to just accidentally happen upon them, so I think its bullshit that people say they cant be banned.

That’s with children so rightly so
They will just go on the deep web anyway