“Incel” AIBU to think forums should be banned?

[SteveArnottsWaistcoat]

Following from the horrible tragedy of the mass shooting in Plymouth, I had never heard of Incel before and had to Google what it was.

I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men. (I’m not going to link to the one I found but if you put in Incels then a dot and then net you’ll find it. The description made it sound like a support network but the content is very different)

Now I could be being totally naive here, I’m sure there are forums out there with all kinds of hate speech against everything going, but some of the stuff I read on there made me wonder how that kind of thing is allowed in such an open public way!

Is it freedom of speech? AIBU to think it shouldn’t be allowed? Do you think these websites are monitored?

The irony of it all though is that it really is a man's way of looking at the problem.
They focus on their physical appearance - ugliness as they call it - as being the reason for women not sleeping with them

Unfortunately the Incels are ugly, ugly on the inside (and not the outside as they believe) and that's what stopping women from sleeping with them. It's a shame that they are blinded by their hate, rather than trying to see how they could change themselves to make their inside more attractive.

I feel like communities like this would just pop up elsewhere. There are wider issues with how they come to believe the things that they do

@Pongo101

The irony of it all though is that it really is a man's way of looking at the problem. They focus on their physical appearance - ugliness as they call it - as being the reason for women not sleeping with them.

But the majority of women do not care about looks in men on that same level as men do in women. There is so much more to the package. Yes I think career success can play an important role. But sense of humor, confidence, being interesting, just being there will usually be what's attracted a woman to her part of you ask her. Some of the best sex I have ever had has been with what you could call "ugly" men if you mean they weren't super models. But lots of women like a bit of ugly. I've seen women on here write about how they love their dhs beer belly, crooked nose, bald head etc.

They start off feeling unattractive to women with no real evidence of that being the case and then join a group that will undoubtedly make them unattractive to women. Surely there is no bigger turn off than sitting at home in front of your computer writing about how you want to hurt and degrade women?

And when that doesn't work the answer is to shoot innocent people.

It's such a man-created-problem with a terrifying man-solution.

Yes - completely agree.

How often do you see a young, attractive woman with an older, average-to-unattractive man - compared to the reverse?

Thing is I don't think they just bemoan that they are ugly. Ugliness is very subjective and some of these men as pointed out in the LB podcast are everyday men, not some basement dwelling ogre who recoils at daylight. It comes down to their visceral hatred of women. They absolutely cannot stand that women are and can be autonomous beings. They don't believe women should have rights and the mere thought of women having choice, independence and a 'voice' sends them into a fit of seething rage.

The brutal truth is that pretty much anyone could 'get some sex' if they weren't fussy about who they had it with.

Women are usually far more willing to compromise on physical attraction if they find someone they genuinely connect with.

Incels don't look at it like that. Why should they 'lower their standards'?

I'm an unattractive woman. If I'd held out for a male model, I'd still be a virgin at nearly 50. Looks weren't very important to me, instead I've sought partners who I connected with. None of them have been 'conventionally attractive'.

I admit, sometimes, I fantasise about movie-worthy sex with an Adonis, but I've accepted that's not going to happen, and that in any event, an Adonis who couldn't hunker down with me in a damp tent to do the Times crossword, or care enough to drive 30 miles at midnight to take a sick cat to the emergency vet, would be no use to me in the long term. Once his model looks had sagged to baldness and wrinkles and dad-flesh, what would be left?

@thedancingbear

most people don't use their real names online.

In this connection - what is wrong with a system that compels people to give their real details, if they want to post on Twitter, MN or suchlike? I'm usually very quick to shout 'civil liberties' when I think it's appropriate, but I can't see the problem with this, and expect it would have a significant deterrent effect, as well as helping the Police etc.

It's a genuine question - I'm very happy for someone to put me straight as to why it's a crap idea

While we may be happy helping the British police, websites are international. People having to use real names on Twitter would allow the British police to check before issuing a gun licence... and also allow the Belarussian police to find people who criticise the government, the Saudi police to find gay people, etc.

Even in the UK, some people have good reasons for not wanting to be tracked online, for example a woman posting for help escaping her abuser. Even if the name was hidden (i.e. MN staff could see it, but we could still have usernames) people may feel unsafe.

They focus on their physical appearance - ugliness as they call it - as being the reason for women not sleeping with them.

While I don’t recommend ever reading these forums, if you do, you’ll discover that they hate “ugly” men (not traditionally attractive or masculine) men who are sexually successful even more than they hate women. Loo lolllrrrr fix

Damn phone posted too soon and definitely don’t mean “lol lurrr fix.” They call such men names such as “betas” for beta male and “cucks” implying they must by cuckolding while the woman they are with also is with a more traditionally attractive man. It’s very ugly, and no surprise to me that when they kill, they often kill both men and women. It’s just awful all around.

When many feminists say that feminism can benefit everyone… this almost feels like viewing the direct alternative.

Can you imagine the amount of work this would take?

Police services have been cut to the bone. This suggestion is totally unworkable unfortunately.

If we can't afford to vet the people who have the licences safely, then no more licences, sorry.

Better that some people "miss out" on shooting random non-human things than some get to run around shooting humans.

@VladmirsPoutine

Thing is I don't think they just bemoan that they are ugly. Ugliness is very subjective and some of these men as pointed out in the LB podcast are everyday men, not some basement dwelling ogre who recoils at daylight. It comes down to their visceral hatred of women. They absolutely cannot stand that women are and can be autonomous beings. They don't believe women should have rights and the mere thought of women having choice, independence and a 'voice' sends them into a fit of seething rage.

This. They have a particular hatred of women who choose to remain single or single mothers. They feel they are entitled to sex and how dare women say no? They are basically men with the mentality of rapists just waiting to spill over that social and moral and legal barrier to actually being a rapist.

They are pathetic individuals and it's no shock to any sane human why nobody is interested in sex/ relationships with them. But they find it unfathomable. It's all a but sad and pathetic really.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I find on MN really vile things said against -Chinese people -men -other women -black people -immigrants -trans people

Perhaps we should ban MN too?

Sorry what? I don’t see women on this moderated site, as it’s predominantly women, advocating / threatening for the rape, maiming or murder of men, women or children. You missed out disabled people btw. We always get missed. But there is never anything remotely like the crap posted on the incel sites posted on here and anything deemed inappropriate is reported and removed.

Intel is an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate". They are frustrated nerds who only want a girlfriend/wife and family. They are super pissed off at the way they feel they have been treated by women - but do not want to kill us all.

Poor buggers need a place on the internet to vent and they are aghast by what that man did in Plymouth. From what I can gather the Incels are not women haters but are lonely, depressed and angry at feminism which they blame for not being able to get a girlfriend.

There's also the MGTOW movement - Men Going Their Own Way.

@Mummyoflittledragon I think the point is/was that you can't go around banning things just because you don't like them. In essence there are many people who would be happy to see the end of Mumsnet and the poster was just pointing out that some of the discourse on here (though not in the extremes of incel forums) could be considered highly offensive towards certain groups c.f. trans threads.

@MariposaLilly

Intel is an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate". They are frustrated nerds who only want a girlfriend/wife and family. They are super pissed off at the way they feel they have been treated by women - but do not want to kill us all.

Poor buggers need a place on the internet to vent and they are aghast by what that man did in Plymouth. From what I can gather the Incels are not women haters but are lonely, depressed and angry at feminism which they blame for not being able to get a girlfriend.

There's also the MGTOW movement - Men Going Their Own Way.

You’re very wrong. They actively celebrate it. Read ‘Men Who Hate Women’ by Laura Bates.

I have been looking around some of the incel forums & wikis over the last couple of days. It has been quite an eye-opener.

There appears to be a whole subculture of misogyny and, in some cases, hate built on a kernel of truth : Any woman can find a willing partner to have sex with if she wants it, all she has to do is set up a profile on a dating app saying she is looking for ‘no-strings fun’ and she will be inundated with offers, but the same is not true for men, hence ‘involuntary celibacy’.

This idea is then used to justify self-pitying rants about how incels are so unattractive that they are destined to remain ‘forever alone’ and they should be entitled to sex with the attractive women of their choice. The idea that they can’t get laid because of their personalities, attitudes and behaviour rather than their looks never seems to occur to them.

How could they ban them though? Aren’t there ways people can set up private chat rooms/message boards? And then it would just be driven underground but would still be there.

That’s the scary thing about the Internet, it’s so… big and uncontrollable in a way.

Money talks. High fines should be sought for the forums that don't moderate messages of hate, to help reduce the issue.

MN can do it so why not others?
If I write here that woman are women my message stays as it's my opinion and a fact. If I write an intent to abuse TW my post is quite rightly removed.

Men can post frustrations with being single, but threats need removing. Yes these forums would go underground, but at least they need to be pushed back.

They could start with banning fathers 4 justice on Facebook. They really are the most bitter misogynist group spouting pure hatred about women. I'd encourage everyone to report them.

Misogyny is everywhere and has been for longer than my lifetime and it is time it ended. I am so tired of the hatred, contempt, ostracism, oppression, control, harassment directed at women; at me and people I care about. I’m tired of feeling that my safety, my dd’s safety is under threat. I’m tired of dealing with the attitude of you can’t do that, or enjoy this activity, or be good at this, that or whatever because you are not a man. I’m tired of the every day sexism. I’m also tired of the women that throw another woman under the bus for the sake of a man.

What are the solutions to this misogyny problem that is so ingrained and permeates all of humanity?

We really do need specific objectives or steps that we can take that lead us to the ultimate goal of ending misogyny. And while we are at it we might as well tackle racism, ageism, all sexism, discrimination against people who are disabled, classism, xenophobia, terrorism. The list goes on.

Unfettered hatred is all consuming. Anyone that I have ever met that is consumed by hatred has never been able to be reasoned with, or has been changed by the love given to them. They have been unrelenting in their pursuit of acting on their hatred in some way or another and feels completely justified.

I have no idea what the answer or solution to these issues are. I agree simply banning or shutting down websites or forums will do little to stop this hatred and extremist views. However, it might make them a little less accessible to vulnerable people. And that’s a good thing.

One thing we can take from these forums is that we actually get to see into the psych of these people. We can see how prolific these views are. Maybe we can learn enough to figure out a solution; an antidote perhaps.

@Willyoujustbequiet

They could start with banning fathers 4 justice on Facebook. They really are the most bitter misogynist group spouting pure hatred about women. I'd encourage everyone to report them.

As others have pointed out, pushing for the shutting down of views that the majority don't agree with (and rightly so, in the case of F4J), could end very, very badly for MN.

If people on that page are advocating violence, or other criminality, then there are existing laws to deal with that. And it's not as if it's an anonymous forum.

The forums could be used to ID potential abusers?

Very interesting discussion on incels on This Morning right now, and how they should be classed as terrorists

Loads of internet content is policed and banned so absolutely this needs to include incel stuff

@MariposaLilly

Intel is an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate". They are frustrated nerds who only want a girlfriend/wife and family. They are super pissed off at the way they feel they have been treated by women - but do not want to kill us all.

Poor buggers need a place on the internet to vent and they are aghast by what that man did in Plymouth. From what I can gather the Incels are not women haters but are lonely, depressed and angry at feminism which they blame for not being able to get a girlfriend.

There's also the MGTOW movement - Men Going Their Own Way.

Is this a joke? Anyone whose first thought on not being able to get a girlfriend is to get angry at feminism (the movement to allow women equality) isn’t a poor misunderstood nerd. They’re aggressive creepy weirdos.

It always reminds me of the beginning of the social network, where the girl dumps Mark - she tells him you’ll think women don’t like you because you’re a ‘geek’ but it’s because you’re an asshole.

If a large number of people don’t like you, you don’t blame them. It’s you.

Also, someone who is angry at feminism because women won’t sleep with him IS a woman hater. He thinks he’s entitled to have sex with women and is angry at the feminist movement because they’ve denied him that.