“Incel” AIBU to think forums should be banned?

[SteveArnottsWaistcoat]

Following from the horrible tragedy of the mass shooting in Plymouth, I had never heard of Incel before and had to Google what it was.

I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men. (I’m not going to link to the one I found but if you put in Incels then a dot and then net you’ll find it. The description made it sound like a support network but the content is very different)

Now I could be being totally naive here, I’m sure there are forums out there with all kinds of hate speech against everything going, but some of the stuff I read on there made me wonder how that kind of thing is allowed in such an open public way!

Is it freedom of speech? AIBU to think it shouldn’t be allowed? Do you think these websites are monitored?

I think we're on the same side, Frugbile. There's a clear enough legal dividing line between expressing views, and inciting violence. I would like to see the law properly enforced re the latter: something which isn't happening.

But many people on this thread are talking about closing down forums. I agree with some but not all of what is posted on the GC forums; but it would be very wrong if that conversation were not able to happen.

I looked on the uncle site mentioned upthread but didn't see anyone encouraging violence or anything similiar

The few parts I read were from males angry and upset they were not valued in any part of their lives due to being 'ugly'.

Who decides what is the right speech and the wrong speech? The government? Is that what you want?

@TheMoth

I agree with more being taught in schools, but an awful lot of boys come to school with contempt for women already ingrained. It's really something else, as a professional woman, when some 15yr old lad sneers at you because he feels superior. A superiority based on what though? Fuck all. It's their future girlfriends I always worry about there.

We used to teach about pornography and controlling relationships in pshe, I remember one conversation with a 16 year old who told me some of the statistics used were ‘probably written by some dirty feminist’, at which point I decided that the battle for his education was lost. Very demoralising but that attitude totally came from porn and home attitudes.

The authorities can police the internet. If there was a public forum posting child abuse images it would be banned and taken down, and so would a forum where people were planning terrorist activity. So these incel forums can and should be removed too because they’re inciting hate and violence.

@BoredZelda

Who decides what is the right speech and the wrong speech? The government? Is that what you want?

Erm yes, if it's extreme and directly inciting hatred and/or informing people how to carry out atrocities. Of course not all of the forums do that, but there is a very nasty and dangerous underbelly to the subculture, do you think no one should do anything, even though they do for other groups that have similar sounding boards?

purplepeonies I agree. Students think feminists or 'feminazis' are on some crusade to destroy men and the world. Their heads combust when I, in full makeup and heels, tell them that I am a feminist and that my dh and ds are, as far as they can be. I don't fit their expectation. I also explain that feminists actually want an equal society, and that feminism helps both men and women. Especially men and boys who don't fit the masculine stereotype.

But I'm pissing in the wind, a lot of the time.

And I also don't think sticking it into pshe once a week, in a room full of 30 teens helps. I think pshe should be taught in much smaller groups, so kids feel safer to actually discuss.

@AfternoonToffee there's a really interesting documentary I watched with DSS last year called about the emotional alienation of boys and young men.

I watched it originally in connection with some work I was doing around helping people exit Neo-Nazi hate groups, and then wanted DSS to see it with me (he was 14 at the time).

Might interest you? It's very US-centric, AND I think it's relevant in the UK, too.

@NinaBallerinaShoes

You don’t think the police check Facebook or Twitter or YouTube etc before issuing a licence?

How could they? Apart from Facebook, most people don't use their real names online.

@Lockheart People will always exploit/circumnavigate rules. That's not a reason not to have any rules.

most people don't use their real names online.

In this connection - what is wrong with a system that compels people to give their real details, if they want to post on Twitter, MN or suchlike? I'm usually very quick to shout 'civil liberties' when I think it's appropriate, but I can't see the problem with this, and expect it would have a significant deterrent effect, as well as helping the Police etc.

It's a genuine question - I'm very happy for someone to put me straight as to why it's a crap idea

@NinaBallerinaShoes

You don’t think the police check Facebook or Twitter or YouTube etc before issuing a licence?

Ah yes, all those people using their given names for their Twitter pages devoted to neo-Nazism, or using their given name as their username on websites that allows users to advocate all women being in sexual slavery. I mean, I’m not trying to take the piss, but this just doesn’t happen. Hell, a lot of them aren’t even using web BROWSERS that can be tracked (Tor, Onion), much less their own names So yes, I absolutely believe there are gun holders in this country that are posting on neo-Nazi websites and Britain First and Qanon and incel sites and…

Our gun laws are among the strictest but they still ask for very little. For example, Staffordshire asks for: two people who have known you for two years (just two!) or more, you haven’t been treated for certain medical conditions like depression, anxiety, and PTSD (no problem; just don’t get treated for your depression, like men we read about in MN every day), that you agree you’ll allow the police to see the gun anytime they want (just click “yes”), and that you say why you need it (great, I’m a hobbyist shooter). And I just have to MAIL in the application. As long as you got two people to lie for you, you might even be able to get a gun on behalf of someone else, as it appears they don’t even fingerprint? So I doubt they’re checking Facebook pages, no. I think we think we’re safer than we are.

It’s very hard to stamp out things completely - paedophilia, domestic violence, violence against religious and ethnic groups. But you can put money into shutting down sites, arresting people who have abuse images/videos on their computers; banning and taking down violent pornography depicting illegal acts - just as other violent videos are taken down. Charging people with hate crimes.

I think advocating violence/rape should be the hard boundary - whether it should go further - perhaps. But let’s at least start with targeting the clearly abhorrent violent and non consensual stuff.

@reprehensibleme

Laura Bates' book is eye opening. She was interviewed on Woman's Hour last year - it's here, at about 16.30 minutes in. Totally appalling.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000mcgr

Really thought women were finally getting somewhere, but over the last couple of years things have been going backwards at an alarming pace.

Thanks for posting that. Horrendous.

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

If the police can turn up to arrest a woman for calling a male person he instead of they For hanging a suffragette ribbon and making a person feel unsafe A man for retweeting a ditty about trans Why can't they arrest those who make threats to women? Because they choose which groups to protect (or over protect when they arrest for non crime)

I'd also like to know the answer too

Also worth listening to is this podcast with Laura Bates (from 10 minutes in)

www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-women-s-podcast/the-irish-times-women-s-podcast-ep-490-men-who-hate-women-laura-bates-1.4532191

We also need to talk to our teen/young adult sons about 'incels' in a very neutral way - even a minute or two asking if they know anything about it.

I had a brief 'incel' chat with DS19 yesterday, fully aware that as his DM he wouldn't be too forthcoming. He did confirm that he knew what they were (he's pretty online savvy) and that it wasn't something that interested him. I don't think he was feeding me bs.

One thing to remember, these incels often kill their DMs first.

Reddit did ban lots of the incel subreddits. Then the incels formed their own sites. When they were on reddit they attracted people who would offer alternate ideas and oppose their beliefs. Now they aren't on reddit they don't get the people pushing back against their misogyny.

It's better to keep the forums in a public domain where people can go on and put forward an opposite view.

The creators of sub- reddits can make their groups private or invite only. Admins can see into private subreddits but will only really do so if something attracts their attention - www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2q04qk/eli5_why_are_some_subreddits_private_and_how_do/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=comments_view_all

I don't disagree that incels can go off and create their own sites but they can have incel discussions on Reddit without dissenting voices being able to challenge what is said.

They'll just make new forums with more obscure names. Forums sharing child abuse images are banned but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

We need to target the ideology at its cause, which I believe is a combination of pornography, teenagers spending much less time socialising in person (especially with girls) and spending much more time online. They spend days watching porn which depicts women as passive sex objects, then they discover a real world where women aren't just going to jump into bed with them, so of course they go online and find others with similar frustrations. They don't make friends with girls in real life, and places like Reddit and gaming communities are very male-dominated. So, not helped by the objectifying porn, they don't have a lot of opportunity to learn that girls are real people, not sex objects.

Not sure how I feel about internet history checks to get a gun license. I feel like people with something to hide would find a way round it (second devices, deleting history etc) and the innocent would have their activity scrutinised unfairly.

I find on MN really vile things said against
-Chinese people
-men
-other women
-black people
-immigrants
-trans people

Perhaps we should ban MN too?

YANBU

The irony of it all though is that it really is a man's way of looking at the problem.
They focus on their physical appearance - ugliness as they call it - as being the reason for women not sleeping with them.

But the majority of women do not care about looks in men on that same level as men do in women. There is so much more to the package. Yes I think career success can play an important role. But sense of humor, confidence, being interesting, just being there will usually be what's attracted a woman to her part of you ask her. Some of the best sex I have ever had has been with what you could call "ugly" men if you mean they weren't super models. But lots of women like a bit of ugly. I've seen women on here write about how they love their dhs beer belly, crooked nose, bald head etc.

They start off feeling unattractive to women with no real evidence of that being the case and then join a group that will undoubtedly make them unattractive to women. Surely there is no bigger turn off than sitting at home in front of your computer writing about how you want to hurt and degrade women?

And when that doesn't work the answer is to shoot innocent people.

It's such a man-created-problem with a terrifying man-solution.

*to her partner if you ask her