“Incel” AIBU to think forums should be banned?

[SteveArnottsWaistcoat]

Following from the horrible tragedy of the mass shooting in Plymouth, I had never heard of Incel before and had to Google what it was.

I was pretty shocked to discover open forums full of what I can only describe as hate speech. Really vile things being said against women by angry men. (I’m not going to link to the one I found but if you put in Incels then a dot and then net you’ll find it. The description made it sound like a support network but the content is very different)

Now I could be being totally naive here, I’m sure there are forums out there with all kinds of hate speech against everything going, but some of the stuff I read on there made me wonder how that kind of thing is allowed in such an open public way!

Is it freedom of speech? AIBU to think it shouldn’t be allowed? Do you think these websites are monitored?

@Cyw2018

*And how well resourced do you think the police are that they can review everything everything an individual has ever posted online, unless in the case of an actual crime being committed?*

It took literally minutes from the release of the perpetrators name to the first media reports of incel links. Maybe a few investigative journalist could be employed in the role, they'd get the job done pretty quickly.

Linking someone to posts isn't a thorough review of everything they've ever said on the internet though, is it?

Identifying =/= analysing.

To be fair anything would be better than now re moderating, which is nothing. Although searching Internet history won't do much, and only provides a snapshot up to the date of applying for one. How many do they process a year, I doubt its a very high number?

@Waitwhat23

Reddit, one of the biggest Incel platforms says this-

'In accordance with the site's policies on free speech, Reddit's admins say that they do not ban communities solely for featuring controversial content. Reddit's general manager Erik Martin noted that "having to stomach occasional troll [sub]reddits like r/picsofdeadkids or morally questionable [sub]reddits like r/jailbait are part of the price of free speech on a site like this," and that it is not Reddit's place to censor its users.The site's former CEO,Yishan Wong, stated that distasteful subreddits would not be banned because Reddit as a platform should serve the ideals of free speech.Critics of this position have argued that Reddit has not been consistent in following its free speech philosophy.'

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities

So, something could be done but this platform in particular refuses to. It has censored non violent groups in the past for 'unacceptable' views but not generally the ones with violent and sexual content towards women.

Have you even read the wikipedia article?

The first two groups on the list banned by reddit are

Beatingwomen - violence against women

Braincels - the largest incel subreddit....

So they clearly do ban these groups, but I agree the line is too far toward free speech and not enough towards calling out and reporting criminality. I guess one big difficulty is that a post on reddit may be completely legal in say norway, but, fall foul of inciting racial hatred in the UK for example, it makes it extremely difficult to police for an international forum.

Re. not being able to ban forums. Oddly enough, Reddit managed to close down many of its feminist subreddits (including some that focused on specific women's health issues) because they were deemed transphobic. It's wrong to think they couldn't take action here, but they won't because their corporate culture is fundamentally misogynistic, and the same goes for Twitter. The tech industry (and social media moderation) is dominated by women-hating men. It has greatly and actively facilitated the backlash against women's rights in the last ten years or so.

I don't see how you can make internet search history part of the process.

It's so easy for people to use browsers that don't record your search history, as soon as it was part of the process then they'd be doing that.

Personally I think guns should only be for people who can prove they have a legitimate need for one.

Farmers, people who shoot for sport or to hunt and can prove that they do so.

This would weed out 90% people who shouldn't have them because it would take a lot of effort to get around.

the police search out terrorists discussions, they can do the same for incels
they knew they were on the rise.

Everyone should Men Who Hate Women!

It's disgusting, and to think these men walk and live among us is terrifying. It should start in schools, I think. Teaching about the start of the pipeline and nip it in the bud.

Also crackdowns on porn. And education on porn and its damage. DD had a lesson about it at her all girl's school, but DS, all boys, never has. It should be compulsory to teach about porn addiction and its effects in wider society.

@GCAcademic

Re. not being able to ban forums. Oddly enough, Reddit managed to close down many of its feminist subreddits (including some that focused on specific women's health issues) because they were deemed transphobic. It's wrong to think they couldn't take action here, but they won't because their corporate culture is fundamentally misogynistic, and the same goes for Twitter. The tech industry (and social media moderation) is dominated by women-hating men. It has greatly and actively facilitated the backlash against women's rights in the last ten years or so.

Reddit is a platform that controls the content and can remove pages on its own site, e.g. the GC forums like you say.

You can't actually ban Reddit, unless all countries around the world agreed to do so. Even then, there are ways around it.

It's a bit like Facebook - Facebook can remove pages that are deemed to violate its T&Cs, but you can't actually ban Facebook (practically, yes the US could arrest Mark whats his face etc etc but the company and the website can move offshore and operate from servers in Argentina, for example).

When talking about banning forums online, you need to remember that you or I could create a forum hosted on a South Korean server which the UK has no power to close down. The UK could try to ban the content, meaning that IPs in the UK would block our website, but there are ways around that. China famously "bans" a lot of western websites, which in practice makes bugger all difference
as an awful lot of their population use them anyway.

That's what we're talking about when we say how difficult it is to "ban" forums and websites.

@FixTheBone strangely enough, yes I have read the article I linked.

Reddit have banned a few anti women sub reddits (as I said in my pp - when I said 'not generally' groups advocating violence and sexual threats against women).

However, there are many, many, many groups which are active and in which Incel groups have free rein to espouse violent views against women. From the same article I linked, the Active groups include many Men's Rights subreddits which hold incel views, including doxxing women who object to the existence of such subredits.

From the article - 'Critics of this position have argued that Reddit has not been consistent in following its free speech philosophy.'

You can't even so much as breathe anything that isn't WokeThink about certain sections of society, and yet when it comes to these incels yearning for the hurt and killing of women no one cares. We live in a very hypocritical society.

I'm actually surprised at how much the incel stuff is being discussed in the news etc. Dh had no idea they existed, but I've known about it for a good few years and have met some young lads I worried would find the groups. I'm pleased at how seriously it's being taken, although annoyed it's taken an event like this to make people realise how abhorrent it is. I'm also torn by the publicity; are more men now going to veer towards it? But then, that's always the risk you take when you publicise cults.

Lots of good points here.

I guess though if it’s possible for things like paedophilia to be monitored closely and gangs brought down, then surely it’s possible to do this on some way too?

Although having said that if Twitter haven’t banned the recent video of some revolting reality tv star getting gobbled off by his girlfriend then perhaps there’s still too much to contend with.

I feel sad and angry that it’s totally ok to specifically target women so openly like this.

Governments should take things like this more seriously.

Not the same thing, but I listened to a podcast earlier this year on the people who attacked the Capitol building moving to Telegram and other platforms to avoid being traced after the big platforms started sharing their info with police.

It's whack-a-mole - shut down one space and it'll pop up elsewhere.

The bit that really saddens me is how young boys who feel lonely and alienated can be 'converted' through exposure to these spaces - kids who go looking for community and solidarity and find it in this kind of poison –and who might have turned out so very differently if they'd become immersed in something else.

I agree with more being taught in schools, but an awful lot of boys come to school with contempt for women already ingrained. It's really something else, as a professional woman, when some 15yr old lad sneers at you because he feels superior. A superiority based on what though? Fuck all. It's their future girlfriends I always worry about there.

I guess though if it’s possible for things like paedophilia to be monitored closely and gangs brought down, then surely it’s possible to do this on some way too?

The “war” against paedophilia isn’t being won online either. It’s nowhere near closely monitored; anywhere. There are teams dedicated to it, and there could be for this, but it’s an idealistic view that we’re anywhere close to stopping child abuse and child abuse images circulating.

Potentially the biggest step forward was Apple’s announcement that they could scan photos on someone’s phone for CSA imagery, and look how that went down last week…

And that’s before you consider that the more you censor this type of person, the more angry they get. You support their view that the world is against them.

And that you’d never fully censor them anyway. They’d just build off shore communities, use the dark web, etc etc.

What annoyed me is that the police kept saying 'this is not a terrorist incident, this is not a terrorist incident' to make us all think it's just a domestic one; in fact, Incels are part of an ideological hate movement against women so it very much is an act of terrorism to shoot at 13 people and kill 5 because you feel so angry towards women.

I'm not sure banning them would do any good.

Maybe it would be better to flood them with moderate posts to help them become better people (IE if you want a relationship you need to treat your potential partner with respect) to get rid of the echo chamber of hate.

You don’t think the police check Facebook or Twitter or YouTube etc before issuing a licence?

The problem is banning it doesn't do anything. If you ban certain language/hate speech then they use code, if you take the websites down they start up again under another name, it can also encourage the users in their belief that they are 'underdogs'. Laurs Bates wrote a great book about it called Men Who Hate Women. It's a dificult read but shines a good light on the issue

The bit that really saddens me is how young boys who feel lonely and alienated can be 'converted' through exposure to these spaces - kids who go looking for community and solidarity and find it in this kind of poison –and who might have turned out so very differently if they'd become immersed in something else.

My first reaction was "what has gone so terribly wrong that this is the outcome?" By the time they are on these sites it is too late, closing them down will not deal with the issues at the heart of them. There is a multitude of factors at play; breakdown of communities, everyone out for themselves, high crime, poor health outcomes, high unemployment, porn it goes on.

I honestly can't see this ever getting better.

I’m guessing you missed in 2018 when Elliott Rodgers committed a mass killing and was lauded as an “Incel hero,” according to the BBC (it happened in the US, but it was covered over here and I think maybe he had family ties here?). I know we’re absolutely inundated with news, so its hard to either remember it all or even read it all, as for some people that would stick out - to me, that was the beginning of realizing how dangerous incels would be - and for some, maybe like you, it was one article in thousands that they saw that year, if you even saw it.

And just like Elliott Rodgers, this new “incel” killer said they hated women, but when he actually committed mass murder, their victims include a good percentage of men (4 of 6 for Rodgers and now 2 of 5 for this new killer). I’m sure there have been studies on that, why they claim to hate women so much but truthfully, they’re just all-around hateful arseholes who kill indiscriminately (their jealousy of men in successful romantic and familial relationships is actually much stronger than their hatred of women? I don’t know).

But yes… they’re dangerous. Any group who believes rape should be legal because they’re not having sex is, of course, dangerous. I really recommend every woman read up on how to spot an incel (it has nothing to do with physical appearance, as they may be very physically attractive, but often to do with bursts of anger, occasionally sharing opinions that the world has been unfair and owes them, etc).

Also, I don’t know if the police would want them shut down? I know they started following such forums in America at least definitely after the killings by an incel in 2018, and I imagine the police here do “watch” (perhaps have a bot that watches for key words) these forums to see if someone is going to take their hatred offline. If they didn’t before, they probably will do now. Also, users of these sites do turn on each other; as odd as it seems, they may think some “hate” is okay but killings like this are unacceptable, for whatever reason (maybe not the same reasons we would).

@OnwardsAndSideways1

What annoyed me is that the police kept saying 'this is not a terrorist incident, this is not a terrorist incident' to make us all think it's just a domestic one; in fact, Incels are part of an ideological hate movement against women so it very much is an act of terrorism to shoot at 13 people and kill 5 because you feel so angry towards women.

I think you've misunderstood. Terrorists acts are only committed by brown people.

Whilst I think Incels ideology is repellent, I think petitionining for forums to be 'cancelled' is a dangerous route to go down. Because there's one forum quite close to home that would be very much in the cross hairs of certain parties.

their victims include a good percentage of men

They also hate men who they perceive as having more success with women, or strolling through life based on their looks. So yes, hateful of all, but specifically of women as their hatred for men stems back to women.

Whilst I think Incels ideology is repellent, I think petitionining for forums to be 'cancelled' is a dangerous route to go down. Because there's one forum quite close to home that would be very much in the cross hairs of certain parties.

Yes this forum would, when what they are trying to censor is biological reality and people standing up for women's rights. So ask yourself why nought is done about forums that not only allow a space for hateful comments to be spoken about women, but many go beyond that and actually have guides on how to do atrocious things to women, and radicalise young men, whilst ones like this after often cited for being hateful and harmful.