The Incel movement is a terrorist ideology.

[flashbac]

It's worrying that it isn't seen as such.

But that’s why I think reporting that this is a mindless violence crime ties in (as I said, possibly unintentionally) with the poor menz incel aims.
As in “It wasn’t his fault, he just lost control - maybe if things weren’t so bad for him as a single white male virgin, this wouldn’t have happened”.

Basically, we can’t win. Either he did it because he was an incel, or he did it as an incel, in which case he was a poor long suffering virgin man/mh problems/whatever, which promotes the idea that men are down beaten as a class.

I know reddit shut them down a few years ago but thta just splintered them onto their own website and few "covert" boards some of which still exsist, though in a more limited way, and some which have also been shut down. Not sure of what other companies they're particularly active on though. I do think people tend to over estimate the power of social media on this case though, whenever one group or forum gets shut down they will be able to create another, the only way to handle it would be to get rid of privacy online in a blanket measure, but then all the positives are gone too, sites like mumsnet just wouldn't be able to function in the same way.

This is where we diverge @ThisIsSimplyBeyond. I don’t see it as making excuses at all. Men like this are blinded by the red mist, they’re totally out of control, that doesn’t excuse them. There’s nobody to blame but them, they’re psychopaths. And I question anyone who feels an atom of pity for men like this, I certainly have none. And they must recognise that society won’t make excuses for them because inevitably they turn their weapons on themselves.

the only way to handle it would be to get rid of privacy online in a blanket measure, but then all the positives are gone too, sites like mumsnet just wouldn't be able to function in the same way.

Well I'd be happy for Mumsnet to be no longer anonymous if it spared another three year old girl's life - who wouldn't?

@Blossomtoes

I was going to reply but @MurielSpriggs beat me to it (with a better reply than I would have managed)

Except that didn’t answer the question. That post described the possible consequences of categorising incels as terrorists. My question was what the incels’ political aims are. Answer is they don’t have any.

But terrorists don't have to have a political aim; they can have an ideological aim as per the CPS guidance.

But terrorists don't have to have a political aim

They do. They have to want something that the political system can give them, that’s the entire point.

@Blossomtoes and several people have explained the political aim of incels so I don't know why you're still posting that they're not terrorists.

"Political aim" can be an ideology not just "get the Tories to do X"

It’s the mass organisation of incels that needs to be addressed. Yes, there will always be creepy, violent and disturbed men, but society should not let them find like-minded communities and egg each other on. I know that’s very simplistic, but it should be the goal, as it is with other forms of terrorism.

[quote FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]@Blossomtoes and several people have explained the political aim of incels so I don't know why you're still posting that they're not terrorists.

"Political aim" can be an ideology not just "get the Tories to do X"[/quote]
Nobody has explained the political aims of incels. A political aim is an action that an activist group requires of a government. It’s the entire point of terrorism. Patronising someone because they demand a bit of rigour in an argument to be convinced doesn’t help your cause.

So wait, people are waiting for them to have manifesto or something before we class them as terrorists. Right...
They are united in their sense of entitlement to women's bodies. Their hatred is of women. They can go on to kill because of this ideology. They are extremists.

Absolutely they’re extremists. No sane person would argue with that. Extremist isn’t synonymous with terrorist.

"Well I'd be happy for Mumsnet to be no longer anonymous if it spared another three year old girl's life - who wouldn't?"

Mumsnet was a poor example, but it was one I used as everyome here uses it. Of course thats true but wjat of scrapping anonimity meant that a lot of mental health charitie were no longer able to operate online, that would directly contribute to more suicides. I'm all for any action that will help, but oversimplifying the issues is not going to help anyone, and would also make them less visible and potential create a higher risk to everyone.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/14/plymouth-shootings-police-urged-to-take-misogyny-more-seriously

Nazir Afzal says it better:

*Afzal said Davison was “exactly the kind of person that you would be keeping an eye on”. Yet it appeared his licence was returned without analysis of his social media posts, which Afzal said painted a picture of a man who thought women were “lesser beings”.

Afzal raised the prospect that extreme views about women could be treated as terrorism. “You have got to think about how we deal with these men, and they are always men. What are they saying online, how are they being radicalised, who is doing the radicalisation?” Afzal said on BBC Breakfast on Saturday.

“If you treat it as terrorism then you have other options open to you in terms of intelligence gathering, in terms of being able to prosecute for disseminating materials, in terms of being able to hold them to account if they are conspiring with each other.

“So, there are other potential offences available if you treat it as terrorism, but of course as we currently know that’s not what the government’s intention is.”*

@Blossomtoes terrorists don’t need to have a political aim. I’m not sure why you keep saying about the political part when many posters have said the definition and you could google the definition of a terrorist and it’s not just a political issue.

You are right that Incels are not classed as a terrorist group in the UK but the argument is that they should be as they fit the definition of what a terrorist is and other countries have now included them as a terrorist group.

Elliot Rogers did write a manifesto. One that is lauded in incel groups.

Wanting every single terrorist to have written their own personal manifesto in order for it to "count" as terrorism - even if they clearly follow an ideology - is hunky dory - so long as it applies across all beliefs and terror-related offences.

The Secret Barrister agrees with me:

twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1426481255961579520?s=19

Useful quick summary
www.newamerica.org/political-reform/reports/misogynist-incels-and-male-supremacism/red-pill-to-black-pill/?fbclid=IwAR1psXgyZsSQsz1oHHP5jyoWyU-qM8h9rnc_0DxXe_vfzEH_Qfkj15aomyA

I’ve copy and pasted the link that ThisIsSimplyBeyond posted yesterday.

I knew that there were women haters out there but usually they are already part of far right groups like Isis and the KKK etc so I knew they were already scum but I didn’t realise that there was an entire group dedicated to self confessed women haters. The above link is really frightening as there is a massive group of people who think it’s ok and they’re not worried about hiding it.
It is 100% a terrorist group.

Go on to the link and replace the word ‘female’ with ‘westerners’ or whatever the words that terrorist ground like Isis use and tell me it’s not the exact same message they’re spreading. So how can Incels not be classed as terrorists.

terrorists don’t need to have a political aim. I’m not sure why you keep saying about the political part when many posters have said the definition and you could google the definition of a terrorist and it’s not just a political issue

I keep saying it because it’s true. It’s what the dictionary definition says. That’s good enough for me. Anyway, it’s a pointless argument because nobody’s going to convince anybody else. Yeah, the Secret Barrister, right!

@Blossomtoes

terrorists don’t need to have a political aim. I’m not sure why you keep saying about the political part when many posters have said the definition and you could google the definition of a terrorist and it’s not just a political issue

I keep saying it because it’s true. It’s what the dictionary definition says. That’s good enough for me. Anyway, it’s a pointless argument because nobody’s going to convince anybody else. Yeah, the Secret Barrister, right!

The Secret Barrister has quoted the Terrorism Act. This falls under its definition. Did you actually read the post?

This wasn't on the dark Web or anything like that, just Google. They are a terrifying community that are allowed to discuss so openly actual violence against the women in their lives. If incel was taken more seriously, as a terrorist ideology/group, then perhaps these websites would be closed down.

It’s called ‘freedom of speech’

I get that there is a grey area with some things but I can’t see how encouraging someone to ‘rape their sister in every hole because she is a whore’ can be classed as freedom of speech.

How many times have we heard about brothers raping their sisters and fathers raping their daughters and its no wonder if there are pages on the internet saying that it’s ok and normal.
This is where honour killings stem from. These women aren’t just killed they are raped by their own family members in every hole first.
How is this seen as acceptable!
It’s because many men see women as inferior and that’s partly because violence against women is never taken seriously enough by the courts.

I keep saying it because it’s true. It’s what the dictionary definition says. That’s good enough for me.

The dictionary will only give you a short summary of what a word means it won’t go in to detail.

If you look in the dictionary for any word you will get the main gist of it but then if you look up the true definition it will give more details about it.

@toocold54

I keep saying it because it’s true. It’s what the dictionary definition says. That’s good enough for me.

The dictionary will only give you a short summary of what a word means it won’t go in to detail.

If you look in the dictionary for any word you will get the main gist of it but then if you look up the true definition it will give more details about it.

Thank you so much for teaching me how to use a dictionary. What a shame my MA in English failed so dismally.

The Secret Barrister has quoted the Terrorism Act. This falls under its definition. Did you actually read the post?

We're in danger of going round and round in circles, but the problem with the definition in the Act is that you need to establish that his motive was to intimidate members of the public. There's no evidence of that that I'm aware of.

@MurielSpriggs

The Secret Barrister has quoted the Terrorism Act. This falls under its definition. Did you actually read the post?

We're in danger of going round and round in circles, but the problem with the definition in the Act is that you need to establish that his motive was to intimidate members of the public. There's no evidence of that that I'm aware of.

I guess the 9 mass murders in less than a decade resulting in the deaths of nearly 70 people by self professed incels who glorify violence against women and the public in general doesn't count?