The Incel movement is a terrorist ideology.

[flashbac]

It's worrying that it isn't seen as such.

I get that there is a grey area with some things but I can’t see how encouraging someone to ‘rape their sister in every hole because she is a whore’ can be classed as freedom of speech.

It's freedom of speech in the same way that someone on Mumsnet might say " if my DH did that I'd have his guts for garters".

We're in danger of going round and round in circles, but the problem with the definition in the Act is that you need to establish that his motive was to intimidate members of the public. There's no evidence of that that I'm aware of.

Exactly that. And no way of establishing motive because he conveniently topped himself.

Thank you so much for teaching me how to use a dictionary. What a shame my MA in English failed so dismally.

Well considering that you were using the definition of terrorism from a dictionary and not the true definition (even though numerous posters posted it) then I’d say it has

It's freedom of speech in the same way that someone on Mumsnet might say " if my DH did that I'd have his guts for garters".

Yes you are right but part of the Incels teaching is to inflict violence on women. I feel that if Mumsnet encouraged real life violence against men then it would be shut down.

@Bretoony

I get that there is a grey area with some things but I can’t see how encouraging someone to ‘rape their sister in every hole because she is a whore’ can be classed as freedom of speech.

It's freedom of speech in the same way that someone on Mumsnet might say " if my DH did that I'd have his guts for garters".

No you aren't right, that's a false equivalence.

@TakeYourFinalPosition

Calling them terrorists would be totally unproductive and self-defeating as I get the impression most of these men would love to be seen as such. They are searching for validation and they don't care what kind.

This.
But the lack of conversation and critical thinking around these men and how we’ve ended up here as a society is woeful.

What would constitute "critical thinking" in your opinion?

Ffs @toocold54, the dictionary definition is the “true” one. Not the various interpretations that come from elsewhere. Words and language matter. We shouldn’t arbitrarily twist them to suit our purposes.

Apologies if someone’s already posted this but there’s an article about it on BBC News today:

Incels: A new terror threat to the UK? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58207064

‘Jonathan Hall QC, the UK's terrorism laws watchdog, has also concluded now is not the time to change the law.

In his most recent report, he said that the UK's definition of terrorism - the use or threat of violence to further an ideological cause - was broad enough to prosecute incel-inspired violence.

But he added that not all incel-inspired violence could be considered to be an act of terrorism.’

So in short it isn’t clear cut. But it isn’t stupid to regard InCel ideology as a terrorist ideology.

I think the real problem is male entitlement to sex. It pervades our society. It means that when men don’t get sex they frequently feel angry, bitter and cheated. And in some men that anger turns to violence.

@Blossomtoes

No, there’s the dictionary definition and the legal definition (i.e. from statute).

The police, the CPS and the courts use legal definitions.

They frequently aren’t the same. I suspect the dictionary definition of many words is probably different to the statutory definition of the corresponding criminal offence. ‘Theft’ for example.

@Blossomtoes

Ffs *@toocold54*, the dictionary definition is the “true” one. Not the various interpretations that come from elsewhere. Words and language matter. We shouldn’t arbitrarily twist them to suit our purposes.

This is a good point. Often everyday words have technical legal definitions for certain purposes which don't entirely correspond with the usual sense of the word. The definition of "terrorism" that has been quoted on here is for the very specific purpose of convicting people under the Terrorism Act, but it might not be the sense that we'd use that word for other purposes.

We shouldn’t arbitrarily twist them to suit our purposes.

@Blossomtoes no one is twisting words to suit their own purpose. Do you think a bunch of strangers just happen to have the exact same definition for the same word.

In many things you’ll have the dictionary definition and then the ‘true’ definition. This is absolutely true of things to do with law and courts.

I’m sure if you looked up the word ‘murder’ or something the dictionary would have a simple definition of it but its true definition would have a more information about it and say things that the dictionary doesn’t.

At last! Thank you for confirming that I’m not going mad @MurielSpriggs.

Do you think when there is an inquest into this, that they will use the dictionary definition, or the CPS one?

According to Jonathan Hall QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, the government is likely to consider treating so-called “incels” as terrorists.

Hall told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme: “The question is really whether or not the authorities want to treat the incel phenomenon as a terrorist risk. That would involve diverting resources or putting resources into it. If we see more of these sorts of attacks, then I have got no doubt that it will be treated more seriously as terrorism.”

Not exactly comforting. I wonder how many more attacks the government consider necessary.

I think they’ll call it murder @ThisIsSimplyBeyond. Because that’s what it was.

I'll try it slowly.

When. They. Decide. If. It. Fits. The. Definition. Of. Terrorism. As. Part. Of. An. Inquest.

Will. They. Use. The. Dictionary. Definition. Or. The. CPS. Definition.

No you aren't right, that's a false equivalence.

How so? They're both advocating acts of extreme violence on the opposite sex in text form on an internet forum.

@ThisIsSimplyBeyond

I'll try it slowly.

When. They. Decide. If. It. Fits. The. Definition. Of. Terrorism. As. Part. Of. An. Inquest.

Will. They. Use. The. Dictionary. Definition. Or. The. CPS. Definition.

No need to be rude. Given that an inquest isn’t a trial but a process to ascertain the cause of death, it will probably be five murder/unlawful killings and one suicide.

@Blossomtoes

How many more attacks such as this would it take for you to consider it terrorism?

Okay blossom... so if/when they rule out terrorism as a contributing factor to the murder/unlawful deaths, which definition of terrorism will they use?

I think they’ll call it murder

I could go and stab someone to death now. Yes it’s called murder and if you look in the dictionary it will say I’ve murdered someone but when I go to court it won’t be that simple.

I could have stabbed a stranger because voices in my head were telling me to, I could have killed my sister as I was jealous of her new car or I could have stabbed my partner in self-defence as he was about to kill me. Yes I murdered someone still but it’s not that simple.

@ThisIsSimplyBeyond

Okay blossom... so if/when they rule out terrorism as a contributing factor to the murder/unlawful deaths, which definition of terrorism will they use?

I don’t think terrorism will come into it. As I said before, an inquest is simply to establish the cause of death. Nobody’s on trial so motive isn’t part of the equation. An inquest isn’t about why someone died, it’s how.

Incidentally, the surviving Manchester bomber was convicted of murder (multiple counts) not any Terrorism Act offences. Applying the statutory definition might not lead to the outcome that many people on here want. Choose your definition carefully!

@MurielSpriggs

Do you understand that if incel activity was classified as terrorism Jake Davison would have been on a police watchlist? So no renewal of the gun license.

I didn’t know that. It’s interesting. There was a complete furore here a few days ago because people couldn’t understand why Verphy Kudi wasn’t charged with murder. They completely failed to see that the evidence wasn’t there and the only chance of conviction was on a manslaughter charge.