Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The Incel movement is a terrorist ideology.

327 replies

flashbac · 13/08/2021 16:02

It's worrying that it isn't seen as such.

OP posts:
Furries · 15/08/2021 02:39

Right now, as everyone tries to wrap their heads around everything that happened, my concern isn’t over the dictionary or legal terms of terrorism.

My concern is what the hell will it take until a movement such as incels is at least moved up the pecking order re “hate crimes”. Right now, I’m happy to concede that it’s not terror-related (really struggling to say that, but I will!). The reason I “struggle” is because, at the base of their beliefs, it’s the fact that they are so pissed off that they can’t “have” women. And how angry they are about it. And how they describe what they want to do about it. If that doesn’t evoke fear in 51% of the population, then I’m gobsmacked.

With this movement, women are - yet again - the ones to both target and blame due to men and their feelings.

Yes, they target successful men too. But at the heart of their hatred is women - either because they can’t “have them” themselves. Or because they have chosen another “successful, therefore targeted” man over them.

Lastly, the NAMALT stuff on the few threads on this subject is just not needed. Every bloody time there is an horrific news item, people pop up with this. And try to turn it around with “but are all women perfect?”. Just bog off with those posts.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 15/08/2021 03:18

I've been on MN years.
Even been told to go google incel, been told I am MRA for disagreeing with some feminist viewpoints Hmm
No.
It's all just so shit and such a mess.
I didn't know what incel was until a few days ago, and followed a good twitter thread explaining.
There's a lot of radicalizing stuff out there on the internet, I find MN can be bad for that too.
It gets extreme and in an echo chamber.
I may not have known what incel was before last few days and reading up on it, but it bears echoes on what you sometimes see.
As in people getting disenchanted (for want of a better word) of the opposite sex and using it as an excuse to hate against minority groups.
The incel movement seems to have scary parallels.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 15/08/2021 03:20

Forgot to say voted YANBU

Furries · 15/08/2021 03:24

[quote BabyPigeon]For whoever is inclined or interested, Elliot Rodger's manifesto is available online:
www.documentcloud.org/documents/1173808-elliot-rodger-manifesto.html

I'm surprised some ppl did not hear before about incels, MIGTOW, red pill movement etc.
The 2014 Isla Vista massacre had a huge coverage, because Elliot was from an affluent background: he was the son of Peter Rodger, a British photographer and film maker who moved his family to USA to work in Hollywood.
His YouTube channel with all the videos he posted was available for a long time, but I think it's deleted now. I'm sure the videos are still reposted by other channels.
There are also analysis videos available, these are just 2 of them:

[/quote] Thank you for the links.

It will take some time, but read the manifesto linked.

KeflavikAirport · 15/08/2021 08:05

afaik the Soho pub nail bomber was counted as an anti-gay hate crime not terrorism.

Jackgrealishscurtains · 15/08/2021 09:25

@NoNotMeNoSiree

I've been on MN years. Even been told to go google incel, been told I am MRA for disagreeing with some feminist viewpoints Hmm No. It's all just so shit and such a mess. I didn't know what incel was until a few days ago, and followed a good twitter thread explaining. There's a lot of radicalizing stuff out there on the internet, I find MN can be bad for that too. It gets extreme and in an echo chamber. I may not have known what incel was before last few days and reading up on it, but it bears echoes on what you sometimes see. As in people getting disenchanted (for want of a better word) of the opposite sex and using it as an excuse to hate against minority groups. The incel movement seems to have scary parallels.
Can you give some examples of things that have been said on MN that are 'radicalization' and are parallel or equivalent to the Incel movement please?
GingerAndTheBiscuits · 15/08/2021 09:26

@KeflavikAirport

afaik the Soho pub nail bomber was counted as an anti-gay hate crime not terrorism.
These ones? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_London_nail_bombings

He was a neo-Nazi who wanted to start a race war.

MurielSpriggs · 15/08/2021 10:20

@KeflavikAirport

afaik the Soho pub nail bomber was counted as an anti-gay hate crime not terrorism.
He told police, "My main intent was to spread fear, resentment and hatred throughout this country; it was to cause a racial war." This seems much more in line with the statutory definition of terrorism ("designed to intimidate the public") than the Plymouth shooting.

But even then he was "only convicted of murder".

Abhannmor · 15/08/2021 11:03

The ideology seems terrorist. But is there really a movement? At any rate we obviously need tighter controls on guns - and social media.

Blossomtoes · 15/08/2021 11:18

Yes, there is an incel movement. Yes, we should tighten up even further on gun ownership. There’s absolutely no chance of getting social media under control, the genie’s out of the bottle and there’s no going back. Any attempt to do it will just push these guys on to the dark web.

Furries · 15/08/2021 11:30

Gun ownership should be much stricter. Limited to army, police, farmers, gamekeepers and firing ranges. I can’t think of anyone else who would “need” one on a day to day basis.

For those who attend shoots etc - guns should be owned by the estates holding the shoots and rented to those who attend on the day.

KeflavikAirport · 15/08/2021 13:47

Yes the nail bomber was a neo-Nazi, I don't think he was investigated for / the crimes presented as terrorism offences though (I could be wrong, going from memory here). It was in answer to toocold yesterday at 20:59.

toocold54 · 15/08/2021 14:49

afaik the Soho pub nail bomber was counted as an anti-gay hate crime not terrorism.

Yes you are correct.

I would have thought he would have been classed as a terrorist especially as I believe he used a ‘terrorist handbook’ to help him make the bombs and where to put them to have the biggest impact.
I think neo nazis are classed a terrorists now.

I don’t remember it happening but I wonder if they thought it was a terrorist attack at first.

ThisIsSimplyBeyond · 15/08/2021 15:46

"he used a ‘terrorist handbook’ to help him make the bombs"

"Anarchist cookbook", I think.

SW1amp · 15/08/2021 17:24

@Furries

Gun ownership should be much stricter. Limited to army, police, farmers, gamekeepers and firing ranges. I can’t think of anyone else who would “need” one on a day to day basis.

For those who attend shoots etc - guns should be owned by the estates holding the shoots and rented to those who attend on the day.

That’s an animal welfare issue

Guns are deeply individual- the size of the stock, weight, whether the barrels are side by side, or on top of each other

People who shoot pheasants spend many hours also shooting clays to get used to their guns
Top clay shooters have stocks and grips custom-made for them to ensure accuracy

If you insist people who shoot pheasants get pot luck guns rented to them when they arrive, they won’t be as accurate and that will mean they aren’t cleanly killing animals with one shot

So the next logical argument is to ban shooting altogether but there are plenty of reasons why that is ridiculously disproportionate and unworkable

The absolute tragedy which occurred this week didn’t occur because of current gun ownership rules

It occurred because of a monumental fuck up by the police, which could and should be have been avoided

user1493889010 · 17/08/2021 12:59

Yes please sign the petition to recognise Incels as a terrorist group UK

www.change.org/p/uk-government-recognise-incels-as-a-terrorist-hate-group-uk

As most people are aware by now, on the 12th August 2021 a man in Plymouth shot and killed six innocent people. This man was associated with the Incel 'movement.'

Incel stands for 'involuntarily celibate,' which on the surface seems harmless, if a little absurd. However, the men taking part express misogyny and an unfulfilled sense of entitlement to sex that they believe women are withholding from them.

Some Incels advocate violence against women and the men who are in relationships with them. They demonise women, dehumanise them, and advocate violence because of the perceived 'wrongs' of not being granted sexual access to women.

Legally, to be defined as a terrorist attack, it has to be considered ideological, religious, or political in motivation. This extreme form of hatred against women is ideological and the intentional use of violence to intimidate is characteristic of all terrorist groups.

Incels on these forums “are now celebrating this act describing the murderer as a hero, hoping these victims suffered and crucially talking about carrying out more acts of violence. If this had been any other form of extremism…would those websites still be up and easily accessible?” (Laura Bates 16.08.21)

The Plymouth attack was not the first terrorist attack linked to Incel groups and online misogyny. There have been 14 worldwide since since 2009. In Pittsburg in 2009 a man walked into an LA fitness and started firing bullets into a group of women taking an aerobics class because women wouldn’t give him sex. He was directly linked to Incel groups.

In 2014 a man associated with Incel groups stabbed three women to death in Portsmouth, England because women didn’t give men like him a chance.

The same year the Isla Vista killings were a series of terror attacks in California by a man well-known within the Incel movement who killed six people and injured fourteen others – by gunshot, stabbing and vehicle ramming – near the campus of the University of California, Santa Barbara.

In 2018 , a man in Toronto after being radicalised online by Incel forums, took it upon himself to drive a van down two kilometres of pavement, killing ten people and injuring many more.

Only six days before the Plymouth attack in Tokyo on 6th August 2021 a man stabbed ten people on a train because he saw women ‘happy’ and wanted to kill them because he was angry he had suffered rejection in relationships.

The media has consistently failed to report the motivations of such attacks unlike other types of terrorism referring to the men who commit them simply as ‘lone-wolves’ or mentally ill.

This means we don’t view it as terrorism because it’s not described as such in the media, we don’t use words like radicalisation or link the attacks to these online hate groups.

Few links are drawn between the attackers or the ideologies they adhere to. Despite the fact most of the terrorists drew links themselves! Most left ‘manifestos’ or suicide notes explaining their motivations and links. Many of them ‘hailed’ the Incel terrorists that went before them and all either explicitly explained their motivations as a hatred of women or were active members of online misogynistic groups.

It's not a movement. It's terrorism. We, the undersigned, want it to stop, and are therefore petitioning the UK government to recognise any self-affirmed Incels as terrorists, or members of a hate group. We do not need another terror attack and more innocent lives lost before the government legislate to class the Incel movement as a terrorist ideology.

So like with all terrorist organisations the government can implement counterterrorism measures such as: keeping a record of individuals and organisations involved in terrorist activities, monitoring those who pose a potential threat and taking down websites that call for violence to prevent any horror like this happening again!

More information can be found below:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58207064.amp
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/men-who-hate-women-laura-bates-book-review-misogyny-b421909.html%3famp

ChainJane · 17/08/2021 13:11

It's not terrorism no matter how much people try to convince themselves it is. The idea that a man is part of a terrorist movement because he hasn't got a girlfriend is ludicrous. Trying to argue they are terrorists dilutes the meaning of the word and harms attempts to counter genuine terrorism.

Blossomtoes · 17/08/2021 13:12

@ChainJane

It's not terrorism no matter how much people try to convince themselves it is. The idea that a man is part of a terrorist movement because he hasn't got a girlfriend is ludicrous. Trying to argue they are terrorists dilutes the meaning of the word and harms attempts to counter genuine terrorism.
Exactly this.
user1493889010 · 17/08/2021 13:20

Legally, to be defined as a terrorist attack, it has to be considered ideological, religious, or political in motivation. It’s ideological in motivation. The motivation is hatred of women. Men are radicalised online. It is no different to any other form of terrorism. By not defining it as what it is we are putting more innocent lives at risk and minimising misogynistic terrorism.

user1493889010 · 17/08/2021 13:37

The definition states ‘or to intimidate the public. It must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause’ this is exactly what Incel related terrorism is.

Blossomtoes · 17/08/2021 13:47

It isn’t. There’s no “cause”, they have no aim or ideology. Hating women isn’t an ideology no matter how many mental gymnastics you perform.

user1493889010 · 17/08/2021 13:52

You seriously believe hatred of women (misogyny) isn’t an ideology? Why only women? Would you also consider hatred of people based on race, ability or sexuality not ideological or is it just hatred of women?

Queenoftheashes · 17/08/2021 13:55

They do have an aim or ideology. Male supremacy. Good grief. They want women to be stripped of their rights and be assigned to men.

Blossomtoes · 17/08/2021 14:02

I think my definition of ideology may differ to yours @user1493889010.

user1493889010 · 17/08/2021 14:05

The official definition of ideology is a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy. Which definition are you using?

Swipe left for the next trending thread