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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Biden is wrong to pull out of Afghanistan

180 replies

bluewanda · 11/08/2021 14:15

Biden says he doesn't regret the decision to withdraw US troops from Afghanistan. Really?!!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9883367/Taliban-going-door-door-forcibly-marrying-girls-young-TWELVE.html

I know the Americans can't be expected to sort out every problem on the world stage, but how can we just turn our backs and leave those poor girls in the hands of these monsters Sad There isn't any alternative IMO but to keep the troops there.

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 11/08/2021 17:23

@Frodogo

Don’t forget too that child marriage goes on in the US as well so they don’t see it as being as big an issue as we do. Confused I promise you that 99.999% of Americans see child marriage as a big issue. A teenager or pre-teen forced into marriage? Of course that's not deemed acceptable in the US!

Not a fan of Biden, but really, nothing the Americans can do will fix this problem. The fix has to come from within Afghanistan and its own people. Are the Americans (or any other nation, at that) meant to stay there forever? That comes with its own set of problems.

Then why is child marriage still legal in over half the US states (30) and why does it continue to happen?

“Girls as young as ten are legally getting married in the United States - nearly 300,000 since 2000, according to a new report by Unchained At Last. With no protective federal law in place, over 20 states allow for child marriage at 16 years, and 10 have no age limit whatsoever.”
populationmatters.org/news/2021/04/child-marriage-us-where-outrage

PlanDeRaccordement · 11/08/2021 17:25

We haven’t already forgotten who armed Bin Laden in the first place, have we?

The Saudis armed Bin Laden. Perhaps you are mixing up Osama Bin Laden with Saddam Hussain?

samyeagar · 11/08/2021 17:25

@Panickingpavlova

And to be honest I'm less interested in the history, what's going on right now should be bringing international condemnation and a united response.
But the solution is rooted in history. The mindset of "this is how it has been done for a thousand years, right up to this very moment" is extremely difficult to over come. Especially when trying to fundamentally change an entire culture, and even more so ones that religion, history, and tradition are core.
Martianworld · 11/08/2021 17:26

@samyeagar

"The only reason western democracies work is because the people, the subjects if you will, have agreed to give the government power. That is the real danger in people like Trump. A significant number of people were willing to take power away from the established government and hand it over to a single person."

Like him or not, Trump was legally voted in. If you're talking about the riot in Jan 2021. It was a few thousand people versus the 330 million who stayed home. Riots happen in every country - albeit not incited by the president!

I actually think Trump showed how well Western democracies work. He couldn't actually make a lot of outrageous decisions because of the checks and balances that are in place. He couldn't stop elections taking place to remove him. He couldn't ultimately corrupt the voting process. He couldn't organise an overthrow of the rightful govt. And the country didn't go to pieces under his watch because of all the systems that are in place. And the country didn't convulse and spiral into a civil war. People bided their time, wrote, protested, organised and campaigned - all legally and with their rights protected. I think this would be reflected in most western democracies. I think there are,many countries throughout the,wirkd who wish they could say the same.

Panickingpavlova · 11/08/2021 17:35

The long term solution.

What about right now

samyeagar · 11/08/2021 17:35

[quote Martianworld]@samyeagar

"The only reason western democracies work is because the people, the subjects if you will, have agreed to give the government power. That is the real danger in people like Trump. A significant number of people were willing to take power away from the established government and hand it over to a single person."

Like him or not, Trump was legally voted in. If you're talking about the riot in Jan 2021. It was a few thousand people versus the 330 million who stayed home. Riots happen in every country - albeit not incited by the president!

I actually think Trump showed how well Western democracies work. He couldn't actually make a lot of outrageous decisions because of the checks and balances that are in place. He couldn't stop elections taking place to remove him. He couldn't ultimately corrupt the voting process. He couldn't organise an overthrow of the rightful govt. And the country didn't go to pieces under his watch because of all the systems that are in place. And the country didn't convulse and spiral into a civil war. People bided their time, wrote, protested, organised and campaigned - all legally and with their rights protected. I think this would be reflected in most western democracies. I think there are,many countries throughout the,wirkd who wish they could say the same.[/quote]
Contrary to how it may seem, I absolutely agree with you.

I do however think that if he had somehow, after the 2020 election managed to stage an actual coup, that there would have been a not insignificant number of people who would have backed him. A lot of people are just fine with dictators...so long as it is their dictator.

samyeagar · 11/08/2021 17:38

@Panickingpavlova

The long term solution.

What about right now

The only short term solution I can see would be full military occupation...which as we have seen countless times never ends up being short term. Ergo, there is no short term solution.
Nandakanda · 11/08/2021 17:42

What about right now?

We should let the Taliban know in no uncertain terms that MN thinks their behaviour is highly inappropriate.

That should sort them out.

BrozTito · 11/08/2021 17:42

They've been training and arming the afghan army for 20 years. The afghans decided to funnel of that money and take the complete piss because they thought NATO wouldnt leave. Theres no alternative imo, if they want the taliban gone they will have to fight themselves, and i despise american foreign policy.

Panickingpavlova · 11/08/2021 17:46

Nanakanda....

Do you not think we as a world lack teeth in the face of this?.
I don't think the pooor girls in their way to their abusers really care about 300 years back story.

PlanDeRaccordement · 11/08/2021 17:46

@ChaBishkoot

May I also point out that Afghanistan is fucked up BECAUSE for 300 years the British, Americans and the Russians have used it for their political purposes with little thought for the Afghan people? We haven’t already forgotten who armed Bin Laden in the first place, have we? I don’t have a political solution but let’s not pretend these countries were in Afghanistan ‘for the women.’
Not true. U.K., US and Russia have only be involved during the last two centuries and Afghanistan was pretty “fucked up” before they even got there and did a lot of fucking up on their own with civil wars and military coups.

The land that is now Afghanistan has a long history of domination by foreign conquerors and strife among internally warring factions. At the gateway between Asia and Europe, this land was conquered by Darius I of Babylonia circa 500 B.C., and Alexander the Great of Macedonia in 329 B.C., among others.

Mahmud of Ghazni, an 11th century conqueror who created an empire from Iran to India, is considered the greatest of Afghanistan’s conquerors.

Genghis Khan took over the territory in the 13th century, but it wasn’t until the 1700s that the area was united as a single country. By 1870, after the area had been invaded by various Arab conquerors, Islam had taken root.

During the 19th century, Britain, looking to protect its Indian empire from Russia, attempted to annex Afghanistan, resulting in a series of British-Afghan Wars (1838-42, 1878-80, 1919-21).

After British left, in 1926 1926 a local Amir Amanullah declares Afghanistan a monarchy, rather than an emirate, and proclaims himself king. He launches a series of modernization plans and attempts to limit the power of the Loya Jirga, the National Council. Critics, frustrated by Amanullah’s policies, take up arms in 1928 and by 1929, the king abdicates and leaves the country.

1933-1973 Zahir Shah becomes king. The new king brings a semblance of stability to the country and he rules for the next 40 years. In 1956 Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev agreed to help Afghanistan, and the two countries become close allies.

1973 Khan overthrows the last king, Mohammed Zahir Shah, in a military coup. Khan’s regime, the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan, comes to power. Khan abolishes the monarchy and names himself president. The Republic of Afghanistan is established with firm ties to the USSR.

1978 Khan is killed in a communist coup. Nur Mohammad Taraki, one of the founding members of the Afghan Communist Party, takes control of the country as president, and Babrak Karmal is named deputy prime minister. They proclaim independence from Soviet influence, and declare their policies to be based on Islamic principles, Afghan nationalism and socioeconomic justice. At the same time, conservative Islamic and ethnic leaders who objected to social changes introduced by Khan begin an armed revolt in the countryside. In June, the guerrilla movement Mujahadeen is created to battle the Soviet-backed government.

1979 American Ambassador Adolph Dubs is killed. The United States cuts off assistance to Afghanistan. A power struggle between Taraki and Deputy Prime Minister Hafizullah Amin begins. Taraki is killed on Sept. 14 in a confrontation with Amin supporters. The USSR invades Afghanistan on Dec. 24 to bolster the faltering communist regime. On Dec. 27, Amin and many of his followers are executed. Deputy Prime Minister Babrak Karmal becomes prime minister. Widespread opposition to Karmal and the Soviets spawns violent public demonstrations.

By early 1980, the Mujahadeen rebels have united against Soviet invaders and the USSR-backed Afghan Army. 1986 The Mujahadeen are receiving arms from the United States, Britain and China via Pakistan.

1988 In September, Osama bin Laden and 15 other Islamists form the group al-Qaida, or “the base”, to continue their jihad, or holy war, against the Soviets and others, including US and Britain, who they say oppose their goal of a pure nation governed by Islam. With their belief that the Soviet’s faltering war in Afghanistan was directly attributable to their fighting, they claim victory in their first battle, but also begin to shift their focus to America, saying the remaining superpower is the main obstacle to the establishment of a state based on Islam.

1989 The U.S., Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Soviet Union sign peace accords in Geneva guaranteeing Afghan independence and the withdrawal of 100,000 Soviet troops. Following Soviet withdrawal, the Mujahadeen continue their resistance against the Soviet-backed regime.

1992 The Mujahadeen and other rebel groups, with the aid of turncoat government troops, storm the capital, Kabul, and oust President Najibullah from power. Ahmad Shah Masood, legendary guerrilla leader, leads the troops into the capital. The United Nations offers protection to Najibullah. The Mujahadeen, a group already beginning to fracture as warlords fight over the future of Afghanistan, form a largely Islamic state with professor Burhannudin Rabbani as president.

1995 Newly formed Islamic militia, the Taliban, rises to power on promises of peace. Most Afghans, exhausted by years of drought, famine and war, approve of the Taliban for upholding traditional Islamic values. The Taliban outlaw cultivation of poppies for the opium trade, crack down on crime, and curtail the education and employment of women. Women are required to be fully veiled and are not allowed outside alone. Islamic law is enforced via public executions and amputations. The United States refuses to recognize the authority of the Taliban.

1997 The Taliban publicly executes Najibullah. Ethnic groups in the north, under Masood’s Northern Alliance, and the south, aided in part by Hamid Karzai, continue to battle the Taliban for control of the country.

  1. Following al-Qaida’s bombings of two American embassies in Africa, President Clinton orders cruise missile attacks against bin Laden’s training camps in Afghanistan. The attacks miss the Saudi and other leaders of the terrorist group.

  2. By now considered an international terrorist, bin Laden is widely believed to be hiding in Afghanistan, where he is cultivating thousands of followers in terrorist training camps. The United States demands that bin Laden be extradited to stand trial for the embassy bombings. The Taliban decline to extradite him. The United Nations punishes Afghanistan with sanctions restricting trade and economic development.

March 2001. Ignoring international protests, the Taliban carry out their threat to destroy Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan, saying they are an affront to Islam.

Sept. 9, 2001
Masood, still head of the Northern Alliance and the nation’s top insurgent, is killed by assassins posing as journalists.

Sept. 11, 2001. Hijackers commandeer four commercial airplanes and crash them into the World Trade Center Towers in New York, the Pentagon outside Washington, D.C., and a Pennsylvania field, killing thousands. Days later, U.S. officials say bin Laden, the Saudi exile believed to be hiding in Afghanistan, is the prime suspect in the attack.

Oct. 7, 2001 Following unanswered demands that the Taliban turn over bin Laden, U.S. and British forces launch airstrikes against targets in Afghanistan. American warplanes start to bomb Taliban targets and bases reportedly belonging to the al-Qaida network. The Taliban proclaim they are ready for jihad.

The rest you know....I hope. But it’s clear that Afghanistan’s problems are not solely due to western interference.

bluewanda · 11/08/2021 17:48

The Afghanistan people need to sort out their own country.*

They don't seem to be able to though - they don't appear to have the strength or capability to stand up to the Taliban and stop them taking over.

OP posts:
bluewanda · 11/08/2021 17:49

Sigh.... bold fail, sorry.

OP posts:
samyeagar · 11/08/2021 17:50

Not just Afganistan, but also a significant portion of the rest of the planet may not like what they have, and we in the west certainly don't, but that does not mean that they want anything to do with what we are selling either.

Thatsjustwhatithink · 11/08/2021 17:51

@bluewanda

What are you planning to do about it? It's all well and good when you can (as you are) armchair theorise about it- but what would you actually do that we didn't attempt in the last 20 years? Are you prepared to go and give your limbs and possibly your life out there?

EmeraldShamrock · 11/08/2021 17:56

It's highly emotional, on a human level I'd love everyone to be protected but money and innocent lives are being lost on both sides.
The reports of the taliban taking young girls as wives is horrifying.

fallfallfall · 11/08/2021 17:56

Let China have a go, they are closer geographically.
Personally maybe in a few centuries it will break up as a country and annex to more tolerant nations.

Martianworld · 11/08/2021 17:57

@PlanDeRaccordement

You're grossly distorting what that report says!

It says there are 300,000 child marriages with a few as young as 10. Not 300,000 10yr olds getting married. (I think there were 3 - which is shocking but no details are provided who or why) They're defining child as anyone under 18. So therefore child marriages are legal in this country too.

It says most of these children are married to adult men which is abuse under a patriarchal system but wouldn't most 16 and 17 yos be likely to be marrying 18yos, who are counted as adult men?

No one can marry under 18 with parental ir judicial permission. 46 states don't permit people to marry under 16. 2 states Inc California have no minimum age. Forced marriage is illegal.

I agree the US should get its act together and make country wide laws rather state laws, but I think you're sensationalising the truth. Unchained at Last do praiseworthy work but it's a charity so it's always going to slant facts to incite more donations.

Nandakanda · 11/08/2021 17:59

@Panickingpavlova

I agree totally.

Sadly the Taliban are just cherry-picking parts of their holy book to justify their behaviour, but I don’t think “child marriage” disappeared by any means while they were absent. It’s just the way it is there.

BrozTito · 11/08/2021 18:00

This film shows how seriously the afghan army take it. Farce. Not gonna lie though they're pretty funny.

BrozTito · 11/08/2021 18:02

That ben guy doesnt have a clue what hes on about though.

notimagain · 11/08/2021 18:03

@AdoptedBumpkin

Being there has hardly helped. I don't blame Biden for not wanting any more U.S. soldiers to die for no obvious gain.
“Doing something” about Afghanistan short term at least boils down to somebodies sons and/or daughters having their boots on the ground.

Funnily enough elsewhere on MN we have a thread about the rights or wrongs of encouraging one’s son or daughter to serve in the military.

I really hope there is zero overlap between the group that want “something done” in Afghanistan and the group that don’t want their kids joining the military.

….And needless to say ThatsjustwhatIthink, thank you for your service.

MissConductUS · 11/08/2021 18:04

No one can marry under 18 with parental ir judicial permission. 46 states don't permit people to marry under 16. 2 states Inc California have no minimum age. Forced marriage is illegal.

I agree the US should get its act together and make country wide laws rather state laws, but I think you're sensationalising the truth. Unchained at Last do praiseworthy work but it's a charity so it's always going to slant facts to incite more donations.

I agree. Slagging off the US is practically a competitive sport on MN, so I'm not surprised.

samyeagar · 11/08/2021 18:06

[quote Martianworld]@PlanDeRaccordement

You're grossly distorting what that report says!

It says there are 300,000 child marriages with a few as young as 10. Not 300,000 10yr olds getting married. (I think there were 3 - which is shocking but no details are provided who or why) They're defining child as anyone under 18. So therefore child marriages are legal in this country too.

It says most of these children are married to adult men which is abuse under a patriarchal system but wouldn't most 16 and 17 yos be likely to be marrying 18yos, who are counted as adult men?

No one can marry under 18 with parental ir judicial permission. 46 states don't permit people to marry under 16. 2 states Inc California have no minimum age. Forced marriage is illegal.

I agree the US should get its act together and make country wide laws rather state laws, but I think you're sensationalising the truth. Unchained at Last do praiseworthy work but it's a charity so it's always going to slant facts to incite more donations.[/quote]
17 year old girl gets knocked up by her 15 year old boyfriend, and they get married. Boom. Child marriage.

As things stand right now, the United States is still a constitutional republic, so until that changes, sweeping national laws are going to have limited success.

PlanDeRaccordement · 11/08/2021 18:06

[quote Martianworld]@PlanDeRaccordement

You're grossly distorting what that report says!

It says there are 300,000 child marriages with a few as young as 10. Not 300,000 10yr olds getting married. (I think there were 3 - which is shocking but no details are provided who or why) They're defining child as anyone under 18. So therefore child marriages are legal in this country too.

It says most of these children are married to adult men which is abuse under a patriarchal system but wouldn't most 16 and 17 yos be likely to be marrying 18yos, who are counted as adult men?

No one can marry under 18 with parental ir judicial permission. 46 states don't permit people to marry under 16. 2 states Inc California have no minimum age. Forced marriage is illegal.

I agree the US should get its act together and make country wide laws rather state laws, but I think you're sensationalising the truth. Unchained at Last do praiseworthy work but it's a charity so it's always going to slant facts to incite more donations.[/quote]
I literally cut and pasted the report from the webpage so blame unchained not me!