To think that women are being encouraged to expect too much from birth?

[Parsley1789]

Something I’ve thought about for a while. On Mumsnet today came across three threads in which the poster clearly feels very upset and disappointed with their birth experience and feels that they have failed. One poster refers to how her friends had ‘textbook births’ - the underlying belief clearly being that there is a ‘right’ way to give birth and that she didn’t ‘achieve’ it.
I am not blaming these women at all, I feel very sad for them. Early motherhood is hard enough without feeling that on top of that you are a failure for not having a water hypnobirth. I asked my mum about this the other day, she had two c-sections in the ‘80s, and she said that it never occurred to her to feel remotely guilty about it.

I’m not saying we should go back to women having no say or power over how they give birth, but I feel that Instagram/NCT/hypnobirthing etc all paint this idea that birth can be this wonderful empowering event when for a lot of people it’s just bloody painful and hard work and thank goodness for medical advancements.

For context, I did not have an easy birth with my first and found breastfeeding a struggle. I have so many friends who have felt like failures after birth, and it saddens me to see it on MN too. AIBU?

If women were encouraged to do a LOT of research on interventions -what they might be, when they are necessary/statistically beneficial/merely convenient for HCPs, what the alternatives are, read a lot of birth stories, and most importantly know their rights, there would be far fewer women traumatised by their births however they end up going IMO.

Agree that knowledge is key, but one might anticipate getting a good deal of knowledge and a balanced reading list out of an expensive antenatal class. I read up, but I was pretty astonished when our practitioner told me she was only prepared to devote half of the last (of several) session(s) to c-sections, when it's a reality for so many women. I read and was lucky in speaking to friends who had had similar experiences so that when it came to being 1 cm dilated after 40 hrs of Labour and being urged to have oxytocin I knew what to expect and what I could and couldn't ask for, but that should be a fundamental part of those very expensive sessions if you ask me.

Completely agree op. Yanbu.

Hypnobirthing can go to hell. You are not ENTITLED to a perfect birth and thinking positively (aka being deluded) will not earn you one. We are very lucky to live in a world where there is great medical care available during childbirth so be prepared to use it if necessary. The menacing undertones of the hb loons implying that if you don’t have this perfect birth it’s your fault for not thinking positively enough must be responsible for a lot of pnd and avoidable self loathing.

Nobody decides to have their appendix removed without pain relief because they want to experience the magic of it being taken out so why would anybody frown on a woman choosing pain relief during birth?

I was terrified pre childbirth. Of course I wanted a pain free, quick birth with no complications, who wouldn’t? But I’m not mad, I knew it doesn’t always work that way, so my birth plan was ‘keep options open and do what the professionals recommend’. I signed up for a home birth just in case hospital wasn’t needed but I wasn’t strongly committed to giving birth at home. In the end I had to be induced and 56 hours later had an emergency c section so it’s fair to say I did not achieve the perfect birth! But it wasn’t traumatic in any way. I just tried to make the best decisions I could (by following medical advice) during the birth to ensure that my baby came out safely and as the hours ticked by I found myself with diminishing options but only about 15 mins out of the 56 hours were horrible so I feel I got off lightly.

Don’t expect too much and you might be pleasantly surprised.

It wasn’t on my birth plan for someone who is both a former pupil of mine and my mate’s cousin to appear at 3am and peer inside my vagina. Nor was it on my birth plan for someone who once went on a date with my (very distinctive looking) partner to walk in an hour or so later and, guess what, peer into my vagina. But it’s a small town so…..

I completely agree OP. When I was pregnant with DS1 I was pretty realistic about labour and childbirth, well as realistic as you can be without actually having gone through it. It was a shock to me to have to prepare a “birth plan”.

I was fortunate that my pregnancy was low risk however this basically meant a complete hands off approach by all medical professionals. All of the women in my antenatal class were also low risk too and I remember the midwife saying to us “because you’re all low risk you’ll probably all have a water birth in the birth centre and be home by lunchtime”. When I went into labour the hands off approach continued. The student midwife I was with was largely uninterested. When I told her I had to push she just shrugged and said I couldn’t push yet because I wasn’t due an examination for another half an hour. I ended up pushing for more than 4 hours because DS1 was back to back. I had an episiotomy and then the stitches broke down. All the medical professionals were surprised seemingly because I had been low risk.

Poor DS1 was pulled out purple and choking requiring resuscitation. Before he was born I remember the sense of the panic I felt when his heartbeat was dropping and the room filled up with more and more people. I feel like both of us suffered unnecessarily because of this bonkers idea they had that I would have an easy ride.

With DS2 I got to 32 weeks before itching uncontrollably all night but my midwife told me not to be concerned because I’d had a low risk pregnancy first time round i was diagnosed with cholestasis only after going to my GP and specifically requesting a bile acids test, otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered doing it.

The funniest thing was that I was considered high risk after that and they actually took good care of me. Crazy.

I had a birth plan for DS1 and when I got to the maternity unit I told my MW that i had it. She rolled her eyes and said that birth plans were just something 'they' make you do to keep your mind occupied. It was never looked at. Did not even bother with DS2.

@EvilEdna1

I think it's more of an issue that NHS maternity services are so awful that so few women have good birth experiences and so many women come out the other side traumatized. I think criticism is best levelled at there to be honest.

^^This absolutely. I wasn't disappointed with my 'birth experience"; I was traumatised by really poor care and aftercare that should have been far better. Yes, some difficult clinical situations are always going to arise. Except for me, the worst bits were the ignoring and dismissing what was happening, the very bad aftercare and the poor quality of services and facilities -- those were the things that were the most traumatising, not the fact that the birth didn't end up straightforward. And wanting decent, safe care that isn't traumatising or borderline actual negligence really isn't expecting too much.

Agree that detailed birth plans might set you up for disappointment, and that we are often unaware of what can go wrong. I had an emergency C section as DD’s head was stuck behind my pelvic bone. That was all explained very clearly to me. Once she was born it was discovered that I had placenta accreta (when the placenta grows into the uterus). That required substantial surgery (all on an epidural, no general anaesthetic) and very little was explained to me at that stage. I lost a lot of blood and went into shock. Was in ICU for three days / two nights whilst DD was in the nursery. When I got to the maternity ward the nurse shouted at me “Your baby is starving!” Tried to establish breastfeeding immediately but my body was too battered and tired. 24 hours of nurses poking and prodding and manhandling my breasts whilst trying to form a relationship with little DD who I’d only just met after 3 days. It was awful. My gynae visited after two days and I was absolutely beside myself. He was so kind and lovely - said that it was very common to not produce milk after your body had been through such trauma, and despatched DH to buy bottles and formula. Left the same day with DD fed and me recovering. Never understood why the nurses were so militant and horrendous about breastfeeding. Never got milk. Baby would indeed have starved if they’d had their way.

My babies were born before instagram was a thing. The pressure on mums giving birth in today's instagram world is terrifying.
I didn't have any kind of plan for the birth of any of my 3 babies. I didn't read any books and I didn't go to any classes. I went into childbirth blind and in hindsight I'm quite glad I did. I had no expecations.
Out of the 3 births I had, only one was what I would describe as empowering. It was amazing, afterwards I felt like wonder woman, I went to tesco's on the way home from hospital for nappies and went back to work when she was 3 weeks old.
My other 2 babies births were not so miraculous. One was keilands rotation, gruesome and I didn't leave the house for nearly 3 months afterwards. And the other left me seriously ill and I spent (without my baby} nearly a month in hospital after complications.

The care I received during and after the easy, uncomplicated birth was good. But then again that probably because I didn't actually need any care.
The other 2 - not so good :-(

I agree and YADNBU

but when women try to tell their own horrific stories they are either get told they are lying/exaggerating or that they should be kind and not scare poor innocent childless women and/or first time expectant mums.

so I don't know what the solution is. I don't know if people want to know the truth and gory details or not.
I have 7 kids and each time it was (obviously) different.
I had no expectations either way, ever, because I had realised that a birth plan is just an idea, not a menu.🤷‍♀️

I guess I was lucky, because I had heard enough stories and watched some real births to know that no matter what happens, labour & birth have one true aim: having a healthy mum & baby once it's done.

yes, it's a bonus if things are easy & calm and there are no complications, no instruments or stitches needed, no panic or emergency life saving ops.
But nobody should expect an easy ride, nor should anyone feel bad or a failure (and definitely shouldn't be judged or criticised!) because it didn't go smoothly.

It's a shame that people are brainwashed by social media and have unrealistic expectations.

I admit, with DS5, DD & DS6 I wrote "Epidural" on every page of the birth plan with big red letters.
that's all I cared about.

One of the midwives was game, after I was admitted on labour ward she paged through the birth plan then with a straight face turned to me and asked "so have you considered pain relief?"
🤣

I’m pregnant for the first time and honestly terrified about the whole thing. I don’t want to be in a hospital as I’ve only heard terrible stories about midwives basically bullying labouring women, not believing them, forcing them down roads they’re not happy with. But then I’m aware that ECSs are very common, so the thought of being at home is also a bit worrying.

I’m not looking for relaxing music and soft lighting, but I do expect to be listened to and cared for, which it sounds like I won’t be if I go into hospital. The whole thing is a misogynistic disgrace.

I also hate the attitude of “a healthy baby is all that matters”. Actually no, I matter too and I don’t want life long injuries or trauma because of bad care. I’m doing all the reading I can so that hopefully I can be as prepared as possible and make informed choices. I will also use a doula (realise I’m privileged to be able to afford this help) and make sure DH is fully aware of my choices too, so hopefully there will be people who can advocate for me.

@toffeeandcream your post resonates with me a lot

*EMCS are quite common, I meant

@Movingsoon21 I’m sorry if this thread has scared you, please remember that you tend to only hear about the really difficult births, or the really straightforward water hypnobirths. I think for most women, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Hard work, might need an epidural, might not, but generally ok in the end. And I found my midwives on the whole very helpful. They’re not there to be your friends, and I feel my NCT course perhaps suggested they were, but they were very professional and kind.

Thanks @Parsley1789 that is helpful to remember x

@Parsley1789 you indeed only hear the bad stories because often women need to vent and so these are the most shared.
I had a good experience giving birth to DS, I can honestly say that the midwife that took care of me was truly an angel, very kind, understanding and treated me with respect and dignity. There’s rotten apples everywhere but I really hope you’ll get a lovely midwife who is supportive when it’s your turn. If not, don’t be afraid to ask her to leave, you’re the star of the show so to speak, you’re not there to be well liked but to safely deliver your baby in an environment as stress free as possible so don’t be afraid to ask for a change of midwife if you’re feeling uncomfortable with someone.

Just wanted to post this about AIMS

It was helpful for me to r

www.aims.org.uk/about-aims

read the magazine when I had DD.

@SheABitSpicyToday

I’ve never understood it. For me, birth is about safely delivering a baby, not about what the mother wants. I don’t agree with home births and all the other stuff where the baby’s safety isn’t top priority. I think it’s selfish.

This is a fantastic example of being uninformed.

had you read the stats on home births for example you would actually see that they are SAFER than hospital births for second and subsequent births.
You would also know that there are certain factors that are taken into consideration when having a homebirth.

On the flip side i think its selfish that somebody doesnt become informed when they are carrying a baby.

An acquaintance of mine has been posting her pregnancy on FB. She's a fitness instructor and has been running and lifting weights right through. She and DH, plus baby no 1 have been doing daily fitness classes on Zoom all the way through, she did parkrun the day before the birth and the implication is that if only mothers tried a bit harder they could all be just as "good".

The best bit is the labour was at home and so quick the midwives only arrived with 5min to spare so she had no gas and air.

Obviously I should be pleased for her, but...

I think the main thing for me is that the reality of birth isn't really apparent until you look into it, which is likely what drives expectations. You rarely see any 'problems' included in the portrayals of childbirth in TV and film, unless it's in an actual medical drama.

I genuinely believe most women expect it to be horrifically painful and take a long time, but that's it. They don't expect potentially lifelong problems from tears or prolapses, or all the other things that can go wrong. That info just isn't pushed out. It's there to find when you look into it but it's not widely disseminated.

Pregnant women are bombarded with information on how to make their birth 'a textbook birth.' We are told breast is best, try and move during labour, have a birth plan etc.

However, the reality never reflects these textbook scenario. Babies don't read the manual. I think everything should be fully explained to women with the expectation or expect the unexpected and the medical profession will do their best to support you.

My birth experience was traumatic, a prem and breech birth that could have killed both of us if I hadn't of been in the hands of an excellent medical team. I couldn't fault the kindness and the care of the delivery team.

The care when I arrived on the ward a few hours later to the moment I left a week later was awful. Meds were forgotten about, I had conflicting advice on how to care for my baby, berated for not breast feeding despite not having any milk come in. All of this on top of being in shock.

I really feel that the whole maternity experience needs to be reviewed, too many women are being let down.

@SheABitSpicyToday

I’ve never understood it. For me, birth is about safely delivering a baby, not about what the mother wants. I don’t agree with home births and all the other stuff where the baby’s safety isn’t top priority. I think it’s selfish.

If you’re all about baby’s safety why would you ban something that’s statistically safer?

I had home births for my last two pregnancies because it was safer than the absolute shambles of my local maternity hospital.

In my case, straightforward pregnancies, being attended by one midwife from the start of established labour and then a second for the birth, neither of them focussed on a dozen other women was much safer than giving birth in a room with my DH ready to catch the baby while MIL tried to get one of the few overworked midwives on the ward to come in.

Women should have good, educated, choices about births. They should be given the choice of well staffed and well equipped hospitals and the option of the likes of home births.

Maternity provision and care in the UK is dire. The attitude to women is horrific (what other major abdominal surgery would you ever leave hospital with two paracetamol for?) and unfortunately other women are often very much part of the issue.

Maternity provision and care in the UK is dire. The attitude to women is horrific (what other major abdominal surgery would you ever leave hospital with two paracetamol for?) and unfortunately other women are often very much part of the issue

10000000000% agree with this. It's unbelievable the way women are treated during and after birth. Absolutely appalling that we are expected to just pick ourselves up and get on with it after suffering the most painful, exhausting, and often traumatic experiences of our lives.

Any kind of surgery and you are expected to take it easy after, look after yourself, don't do this and that for a few weeks, but giving birth or having a C-section you should just be able to cope.

@PJday41

I agree, it is women putting pressure on themselves. On here today a women wanted to read positive birth stories only. She did not want to read the truth that a large number of women experience when giving birth.

I had a traumatic birth with my first child and an emergency c section. I had a planned section with my second and still had a crap time at the end of it TBH. I'm honest with people who ask for my story. There are people who want to judge me for having c sections and they're entitled to their opinion. I know my eldest child would have died without it.

I don't think it's coincidence that there seems to be a push towards natural births with less intervention at a time that there are being huge cuts made to the NHS.

I agree

@EvilEdna1

It is really odd to me that there is blame being placed on antenatal education providers (of which NCT is just one of many) and women themselves for crap birth experiences.

Just read that and found myself nodding. There are loads of different antenatal education classes out there and why is it their fault if the woman doesn't have the birth she wants? I have done both NCT and NHS classes. My NCT mentioned caesarean, induction and pain relief. The NHS classes were really badly organised and the best bit was seeing the rooms where you birth. They also got out a set of forceps and scared the living daylights out of us. I've just looked on the NCT website and they mention all forms of intervention. There are a lot more caesareans and inductions over the last 10 years. That's not the fault of the education classes, it's the state of our NHS. If women choose a provider who doesn't acknowledge that birth has become more complicated in the last 10 years or only choose just to do the hypnobirthing bit that's down to the women - surely if you're spending money to prepare you make sure that the provider is qualified and balanced? Looking at my own family, maybe spend more time researching and getting informed rather than planning the colour of the nursery and ridiculously priced pram that the baby doesn't even care about (or probably need for months).

To be fair, when I had the 'writing the birth plan' session with my midwife, he was very clear about the fact that it wasn't a statement of what was going to happen, but rather an opportunity to discuss preferences and educate women on the possible interventions they may require ahead of time. It's a lot less terrifying if you require forceps or ventouse to understand what those things are ahead of time and understand that they might happen, than to suddenly have them offered to you without knowing what they are. Ditto in terms of there might not be the time to thoroughly explain the risks and benefits of those in an emergency situation without endangering the baby. The birth plan was to express preferences where possible but obviously that's as far as they go.

I agree with you altogether though. There's a massive industry set up to promote the idea that if you do everything right, you'll have a specific type of birth. It appeals to women because the reality, the fact that birth is actually a pretty brutal, dangerous and unpredictable process, is difficult to swallow. So they flog you massage, breathing techniques, with the suggestion that it'll equip you to have the birth you want.

A friend of mine is super into the whole natural, attachment parenting thing, and ended up with an epidural, to this day she talks about how she 'had no choice' and 'had to have it' or her body wouldn't have relaxed enough for the baby to make it out or something. It's so sad that she feels she has to justify why she had an epidural, as if it's the worst thing in the world and some kind of failure.

I had a horrific birth, a five day induction followed by 13hr of intense, 100/10 contractions due to the induction meds, totally unmedicated because they refused to give me anything as I wasn't dilated, followed by an epidural, baby in distress, ventouse, episiotomy, stitches, a permanent birth injury and long and painful recovery. I have had women tell me it would have gone differently if I'd just relaxed and trusted my body. I mean, I was pretty relaxed other than the 13hr of unmedicated contractions (which I have PTSD from :( ), I felt safe and secure in a hospital environment surrounded by trained staff and equipment and couldn't have been more chilled about birth, I was actively looking forward to it and ready to embrace it.

So much of birth is just random depending on your body and baby on the day and it's horrible that we try and tell women that if they do everything right they'll have a certain birth.

And on the same note, we need more honesty about breastfeeding, not just that it can be hard, but that it isn't always possible for every mother, and that a percentage of people don't produce enough milk for exclusive breastfeeding regardless of effort put in. That has traumatised me way more than the birth. Being an insufficient supply parent surrounded by people telling me that wasn't a thing and being gaslit into believing that my body would meet my baby's needs, when in actual fact he was starving in front of us and came very close to brain damage and requiring a full blood transfusion.

I saw someone the other day tell a group of women that birth is no different to taking a shit, it's a natural bodily process and if you're afraid of it it's just because you've been indoctrinated into that fear. Utter, utter hogwash, and an insult to the many thousands of women who die in childbirth every single year across the world.