To think that women are being encouraged to expect too much from birth?

[Parsley1789]

Something I’ve thought about for a while. On Mumsnet today came across three threads in which the poster clearly feels very upset and disappointed with their birth experience and feels that they have failed. One poster refers to how her friends had ‘textbook births’ - the underlying belief clearly being that there is a ‘right’ way to give birth and that she didn’t ‘achieve’ it.
I am not blaming these women at all, I feel very sad for them. Early motherhood is hard enough without feeling that on top of that you are a failure for not having a water hypnobirth. I asked my mum about this the other day, she had two c-sections in the ‘80s, and she said that it never occurred to her to feel remotely guilty about it.

I’m not saying we should go back to women having no say or power over how they give birth, but I feel that Instagram/NCT/hypnobirthing etc all paint this idea that birth can be this wonderful empowering event when for a lot of people it’s just bloody painful and hard work and thank goodness for medical advancements.

For context, I did not have an easy birth with my first and found breastfeeding a struggle. I have so many friends who have felt like failures after birth, and it saddens me to see it on MN too. AIBU?

@CoalCraft

This is why I refused to have a birth plan beyond "would prefer vaginal over CS, all else being equal".

Can't be disappointed by plans going awry if there's no strict plan.

I agree. There were no birth plans (that I knew of), when I was pregnant 42 years ago. I just went into hospital and gave birth! I'd have hated to feel pressurised into anything, it's such an individual experience.

I think there are several issues here. One is that everything in maternity services is so under funded and there is not enough staff to care for the women and babies properly.

In my limited experience I have found that the birth centres and low risk units have "nicer" facilities than the labour wards which made me feel less valued/cared about as a high risk labouring woman.

As a previous poster mentioned we have so much control in our lives now but with ttc, pregnancy and birth we still don't and that can be frustrating and scary.

Another thing is a total lack of accurate and realistic information. It's really common for an induction to take 5 days to turn into active labour or for an elective c-section to take place the day after the planned date. Also it's normal for latent labour to go on for ages before active labour starts.

@3ormorecharacters don't worry, we all say things without really thinking from time to time and it's unusual of you to admit it and apologise (especially on MN!) so I appreciate it

@3ormorecharacters Thanks for apologising I know it’s just a flyaway comment and I’ve heard lots of people say it in real life. Just probably one to think rather than say

The online pregnancy group I joined was on about this over a decade ago. People disappointed that they couldn’t have a natural birth. It never occurred to me to feel sad about having to have a c section, to be honest I was a bit relieved as a vaginal birth sounded terrifying. Not so thrilled afterwards when it took me much longer to recover.

I decided very early that I wanted a CS. I had many reasons why I thought this was best for myself, but it was maternal choice and not medically necessary, my doctor agreed to it and that was that, I had a great time.
I have received and seen others receive horrendous comments about doing this, ranging from the quite mild ‘too posh to push’, waste of NHS money’, to the more unpleasant ‘you aren’t a proper mother as you didn’t give birth properly’ ‘your children won’t love you as much’ to name a few, some really bizarre shit tbh.
I’m part of a few CS Facebook groups, and while I truly don’t give a damn about what people say to me about it, I see women asking for advice on how to feel better, who are wracked with guilt over their CS which is further compounded by these sorts of comments. Quite often it was an emergency or medically necessary and wasn’t their choice and regardless of how the actual operation and recovery went, some are genuinely traumatised because they perceive themselves as failures.
I would love to know how much of this feeling of failure is due to society’s expectations of how we are supposed to give birth, or what is considered a ‘successful’ birth.
I’ve seen women genuinely baffled by the idea that they are a success no matter how their child came into the world, and shocked that a CS doesn’t make you a failure and that some people actively choose it.

Yes I think it’s being weirdly glamorised but isn’t everything these days? Every bit of womanhood from first menstruation to menopause seems to be an instagram opportunity. I’m on a fb group for women who have precipitous labours and there’s quite a lot of accolade for women who have drug free homebirths. I’ve had two births that I just endured and couldn’t wait to be over. I have looked at other women’s birth photos and positive birth stories and felt a bit robbed but at the same time I remind myself that people lie lol

I could not agree with you more.

As someone who uses to be a nurse in obs & gynae we have GOT to stop making women give birth vaginally at all costs, I treated so many women who should have been given c-sections but money rules and women are collateral damage it's no accident that this weird belief that a c-section so something a woman should feel guilty about

Oh yes, if men had the babies it would be so different by now! (Plus less children in the world too I bet )

Having spoken to an renowned expert obstetrician his view was that all pregnancies can seem straightforward in reverse but that really that's the only time one can say how it will go.

Speaking as someone who went in with an open mind and no real birth plan.

We had a really difficult time, my DC almost didn't make it.

It's a complete fluke how it will go for every women.

Childbirth is the most dangerous thing that a women can do. And once you are part of the club of people who it went wrong for, it is incredible how common it is that women have a traumatic experience.

If I was to do it again I would have a doula with me so that I wasn't having to adjust to new personalities during it. I found it very difficult changing midwives during the process.

I was also midwife led pregnancy care. In hindsight this now seems incredibly naive and I would never recommend anything other than consultant led care.

I also recommend that everyone read 'this is going to hurt', which is written by an OB.

With breastfeeding the reality is that it takes a village. That and I would recommend reading the positive breast feeding book by Amy brown.

I would also advise speaking to a lactation consultant and creating a relationship in advance of the birth so that you have that support in place because the reality is that it is hard work, takes a lot of persistence and is a skill you need to learn.

@sar302

It's an entire circus designed to dress up the gruelling realities of pushing something the diameter of a small dinner plate out of your vagina, and I think it's appalling.

What women actually need is properly funded pre and post natal and delivery care, realistic information about and treatment for birth injuries, and to have some say over their birthing experience.

Couldn’t agree more with this.

I also take issue with the idea that a woman has to be her own advocate. I had a precipitous labour and everything happened in such a rush I just had to go with it. With hindsight I was able to see the points at which I might have said no to certain things.

posted too soon.
But by that pint it was irrelevant. What I needed (and to be fair, did mostly receive imo) was good medical care.

I have 3 children. My first birth the baby had their back to my back and I managed to get through goodness knows hope much gas and air and was told that it was like I had drunk a bottle and a half of whisky, the second I had two puffs of gas and air as his head crowned and had what was really the “perfect birth” and my third 15 years later when I had almost got to the pushing stage when it was decided that dd was in distress and had emcs (I started to push as I was being taken to the theatre.

All my labours were different but the main objective in being in labour was to have a healthy baby and they all were so that was what really matters

I think a lot of the problems around women feeling like they have failed during birth is the lack of choice for things like pain relief and the terrible post natal care if things do get damaged. The women I know who feel like they failed feel like they weren't in control. This is to do with how they were treated during labour. And it's a total travesty that women done at least get a physio appointment to check how things are healing further down the line, pelvic floor strength, advice with prolapse or scar healing etc. I have heard truest horrendous stories of things that have happened to women i know after childbirth and it's all just swept under the carpet because "that's what happens". It's akin to breaking you elbow snd losing complete use of your arm because nobody bothered to put a cast on it to help it heal. Totally avoidable. The way women's health is treated is shocking.

My maternity service wasn't great at all. No mention of c-sections before and I ended up with an emergency one. They never told me my son was back to back until after and I had to make myself cry before they took my pain seriously enough. I was told to call that night if baby cried as I wasn't supposed to get up after the section. I rang repeatedly and nobody came as they were too busy. I hated every minute of my time there and I knew then I would never do it again. I did feel like a failure and it was very hard to bond with my son initially x

I had a horrendous birth with my 1st born. It’s a miracle I’m here now. When I asked why woman aren’t told about risks and what happens when things go wrong. I was told it’s not discussed as they don’t want to scare women!! Some of the trouble with birthing expectations is women as a whole don’t see their mums/aunts/siblings/cousins even next door neighbours giving birth anymore. Its become a hidden process that we learn about in school/from telly.

My NCT course spent SIX hours talking about birth and not one single minute mentioning things you should look out for after birth that might tell you baby is poorly. There must’ve been half an hour on stupid crap that ‘may’ induce labour like clary sage. I hope the NCT read this thread.

I wrote a ‘birth preference’ page for my consultant led labour. But I made it clear and said to the midwife and consultant when I got to hospital that ultimately if the safest way to get the baby out was through my left nostril I would go with it. When things got dicey I ended up needing ventouse and an episiotomy - not what I had wanted - but the consultant knew from my preference sheet that what I needed most was to know what was happening and why it was happening. And then after the labour and then again the next day she took the time to talk me through what had happened and why. That time and compassion was what made all the difference. It turned something that could have been traumatic and a big deviation from the labour I wanted into a story about the safest possible way to get my baby into the world. I couldn’t have hoped for more.

I had an 'easy' 6 hour labour. In and out within 12 hours, minimal drugs and no stitches. I was shamed by 2 people because I hadn't done it properly with an induction/epidural etc 🙄 It works both ways.

Hmm I’m not sure. Tbh I struggle with these discussions because I feel a lot of messages get mixed up.

I agree women shouldn’t be lead to believe that one type of birth is ‘right’ or ‘better’. I agree that women shouldn’t be told they can literally ‘plan’ how their birth will happen, that their mindset will control how events during their birth will unravel. I strongly believe women should be educated and made aware of problems that commonly arise during birth, the different interventions that can take place and why- basically properly educated on the reality of giving birth.

However, I believe women should be able to use that information to make educated choices themselves. I believe the dynamic between women and healthcare professionals should be adults speaking to adults- not the adult/child dynamic that often exists now. I strongly believe women should be allowed to request a Caesarean section for her own reasons. I believe a properly informed birth plan can be invaluable to helping a woman feel in control, have more say over her own body and be particularly helpful to survivors of sexual trauma.

I also believe women aren’t selfish for wanting to come out the other side without psychological trauma, ‘healthy mum and baby at the end of it all’ ALSO means a mother who isn’t going home with PTSD or depression from how she was treated. If she does then the ‘healthy mum’ goal hasn’t been met.

I also strongly believe women have the right to autonomy and to give consent over who touches their bodies or what procedures happen. Too often a distressed woman will reflect on an unnecessary, non-consensual vaginal exam and be told ‘well you came out with a healthy baby that’s all that matters!’

One time there was a thread here where a woman spoke of her experience- she consented to a vaginal exam, found it strangely uncomfortable, only for the midwife to announce she had ‘done a sweep whilst she as down there’ afterwards. So many posters were very defensive of what is basically and literally assault.

So yeah... women deserve to be properly informed and educated about the birth process and the realities of childbirth BUT this really doesn’t have to be in conflict with them making choices, being respected as adults and coming out of birth without ptsd.

I

@CheeseCrackersAndChutney

My NCT course spent SIX hours talking about birth and not one single minute mentioning things you should look out for after birth that might tell you baby is poorly. There must’ve been half an hour on stupid crap that ‘may’ induce labour like clary sage. I hope the NCT read this thread.

If they spent 6 hours talking about birth they must have spent quite while talking about postnatal issues. If they spent none of that talking about normality of the newborn interns of health and feeding etc you should complain. Did you complain about this obvious oversight?

Reading this makes me realise that there is a real need for a non NCT 'realistic expectations' type of birth course that talks honestly and positively about the range of different possible types of birth. This could be done without scaring people but just being realistic about what to expect under different circumstances. We shouldn't be lead to expect that we'll all be lying on our backs screaming in agony (many of us are not) nor that we'll be floating blissfully in a pool....who wants to get this new 'real birthing' course going?!?!?!!?

@Twattergy

Reading this makes me realise that there is a real need for a non NCT 'realistic expectations' type of birth course that talks honestly and positively about the range of different possible types of birth. This could be done without scaring people but just being realistic about what to expect under different circumstances. We shouldn't be lead to expect that we'll all be lying on our backs screaming in agony (many of us are not) nor that we'll be floating blissfully in a pool....who wants to get this new 'real birthing' course going?!?!?!!?

Who says the NCT is unrealistic? The trouble is there is a fine line between between being realistic and scaring the crap out of women about how utterly awful maternity services are in the UK are currently. NCT covers assisted birth, episiotomy, caesarean birth, pain relief,induction, postalnatal recovery as well as straight forward birth. Practitioners are told they have to cover these subjects. If anyone has taken an NCT course RECENTLY which did not CV cover these subjects complain and ask for your money back.

I’m not saying we should go back to women having no say or power over how they give birth, but I feel that Instagram/NCT/hypnobirthing etc all paint this idea that birth can be this wonderful empowering event when for a lot of people it’s just bloody painful and hard work and thank goodness for medical advancements.

There are a lot of people making a lot of money out of women's pursuit of the perfect birth. According to Which? the average antenatal course costs £176. Throw in hypnobirthing, acupuncture etc etc

www.which.co.uk/reviews/scans-appointments-and-classes/article/nhs-vs-nct-antenatal-classes-a3Etb2D2cVKX

I also had a rough first birth and I'd thrown a lot of cash at trying to make it wonderful. It was physiology that let me down- I do believe we should be more realistic. Plus a lack of honesty about breastfeeding and how hard it can be and where to go for support probably helps to account for such low levels of BF in the UK (as well as a prudish response to it in public spaces).

In my opinion, it's about knowledge. Knowledge is the only thing that will give you any semblance of "control" over your birth, most critically the knowledge of your rights as a birthing person and the right to say no to interventions and to request them.

In no other branch of medicine I'm aware of, except possibly mental health, are patients infantilised, coerced, bullied and downright lied to as they are in maternity care.

I had two EMCS, first due to unnecessary induction and consequent failure to progress (had no idea I was allowed to refuse induction after 42 weeks) and I felt a failure - because stuff just happened to me. I had no knowledge of my rights, of alternatives, and zero agency.

Second EMCS stuff still happened to me (planned home birth scuppered by meconium in waters, fast painful contractions, dropping foetal heartrate) but it was a positive, empowering birth because I understood what was happening to me, what it meant, what my options were, and I knew I HAD THE RIGHT TO SAY NO when people started trying to railroad me. And that I was informed enough to make good, valid decisions for me and my daughter. What could have re-traumatised me actually healed the pain of my previous birth, not because it was a "textbook" birth but because I had agency.

If women were encouraged to do a LOT of research on interventions -what they might be, when they are necessary/statistically beneficial/merely convenient for HCPs, what the alternatives are, read a lot of birth stories, and most importantly know their rights, there would be far fewer women traumatised by their births however they end up going IMO.