To think she had this baby out of spite?

[Nineteeneightynine]

Name changed because on the off chance the woman in question uses MN i don't want her knowing who i am by my posting history.

I'll call her Sarah.

Sarah was in a relationship with 'John' and the pair had a child. After 6 years together the relationship came to an end - but during the final 2 years of the relationship Sarah had multiple terminations of unplanned pregnancies because she didn't want more children and the pair were growing apart. The split, however, was instigated by her.

They broke up and 18 months later John met and began a relationship with somebody else. They got engaged and conceived a baby.

Sarah then decided she wanted him back after all.

At this point Sarah became even more difficult (think using her existing child as a weapon)

When Johns partner was heavily pregnant Sarah orchestrated a situation whereby she and John would be alone together, think special occasion under the guise of being for their child's benefit. Alcohol was involved.

Sarah made a pass at John, and because John is a selfish idiot and wasn't getting much 'action' at home with his heavily pregnant fiance, he reciprocated and they had a one night stand. John claims Sarah told him she was on the contraceptive implant so they didn't need to use a condom. John didn't question it and was happy to proceed without.

Soon after, very soon indeed, almost as if she was waiting to test, Sarah tells John she's pregnant and wants him to get back together with her "for their family" and try again.

John doesn't want to re-enter the relationship and wants to stay with his then current partner, who was expected to give birth any day.

Sarah decides that actually 'now' (then) is the perfect time to bring another child into the world and she would be having the baby regardless. Issues ultimatums. Briefly stops contact between John and his existing child when John says he doesn't want another.

Bare in mind that before the relationship ended, Sarah was adamant she didn't want any more children and exercised her right to terminate multiple pregnancies because the time wasn't right and the relationship was failing. It was only after seeing John settling down with somebody else she changed her mind.

Johns partner found out and was understandably crushed, now years later has to co-parent and see that (yes totally innocent) child on a regular basis.

WIBU to believe that Sarah, with all of the above taken into consideration, had this child out of spite?

If only there was a way for men to avoid getting women pregnant who aren’t their partner.

What a difference it would make to society.

This is a study from 17 years ago that compares 22 individuals with Aspergers with 12 individuals described as having high functioning autism (incredibly small sample size therefore reduced validity of findings); and looks at how they differ in terms of scores on certain IQ characteristics. It found that those with Aspergers overall showed higher verbal IQ abilities. You comment was that an IQ score of more than 70 is a part of the diagnostic criteria for Aspergers. How goes this article relate to that?

The article states that Asperger's is defined as having no intellectual impairment.

Can you show me in which diagnostic manual an IQ of less than 70 is part of the criteria for Aspergers?

The ICD-10 states that diagnosis requires lack of any clinically significant delay in cognitive development. As does DSM-V.

Mild learning disability is a clinically signiifcant delay i. cognitive development.

Anyone who genuinely works with autistic people wouldn't need this explaining to them. And the OP has already admitted that I was right and she was fibbing about her relative's diagnosis. So my work here is done.

@FatCatThinCat

Aspergers has actually now been replaced in the DSM-V by the umbrella term Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), therefore at least in terms of formal diagnostic terms this label is no longer used (it of course remains for those diagnosed with Aspergers under the old DSM-IV system). There is no currently diagnostic manual in the U.K. that specifies Aspergers includes an IQ of > 70 (of which I am aware). ASD is recognised as a spectrum of higher to lower functioning and may be diagnosed with or without a comorbid intellectual disability.

@Lumpwoody

This smells like the way my ex and his family used to pick apart our marriage. And say he wasn’t abusive it was all down to me that we had the kids they were all accidents and I was a scarlet woman.

He is completely responsible for not having used a condom and his Aspergers or autism isn’t so bad he can’t work and function so I don’t see how you’re getting blaming Sarah for everything.

I'm not blaming Sarah for everything

He is responsible for his shitty behaviour and cheating.

I am saying that Sarah herself hasn't behaved well here and that she probably continued with that pregnancy as a fuck you to johns partner, because he didn't want to get back together with her when she asked.

That’s some fuck you to a woman she barely knows.

questioned why after having numerous terminations when actually circumstances were better - she would then decide to continue with that particular pregnancy
Because she wanted to. She doesn't need any other reason than that.

The article states that Asperger's is defined as having no intellectual impairment.

It is an article and a definition from almost 2 decades ago. We have moved on from this definition considerably as research and understanding of ASD has developed.

I said yanbu but really if they had pregnancies effort that she got rid of what were they even using then? Nothing is 100% effective. The real issue here is surely the cheating?

I just stood by my belief that she had less than good intentions

Why does it matter to you if you are indifferent?

@Lumpwoody

That’s some fuck you to a woman she barely knows.

She made it clear she wasn't happy about his engagement or pregnancy news and wanted him back, of course she had bad feeling towards his partner because in her eyes at the time she had everything which she herself wanted back.

@VictoriousPlum

I just stood by my belief that she had less than good intentions

Why does it matter to you if you are indifferent?

It doesn't matter to me as much as you lot believe it does.

It made for an interesting discussion.

Of course she did.

You’re way over invested.

It smells exactly like my ex in laws and the bitching they did. Even tried to say my youngest wasn’t my ex’s. I told them to knock themselves out and do a DNA test and when the results came back I’d take a full page as in the local paper with the results. Funny how they never bothered.

Maybe get a hobby instead of bitching for an afternoon? Crochet or crafting maybe ?

Maybe she just wanted him back? His own fault

This thread came about as a result of a conversation I was just having offline, me and the other party both think there was an element of spite in having a child in those circumstances

So you aren't either of them, and you are gossiping with someone else who isn't either of them. And yet you know categorically what her motives were

Mumsnet is such a fickle place and changes like the wind.

Because it's not a hive mind but millions of people with different thoughts.

Sarah not being "an angel" doesn't mean people are going to focus on her. It's possible spite was a factor and if posted from her POV she might have gotten torn apart (including for wasting her time with John and being the OW), but other than potential risks to the child in that, her motives doesn't change at all what has been said about John.

I feel bad for the kid - it sucks when a parent doesn't want you and it raises the risk significantly of the child being abused - and I feel bad for the new partner who was pregnant at the time for having a partner who was willing to risk her health and wellbeing to get his end away. What a disgusting thing to do to someone you're meant to love. I don't feel at all bad for John even if she did something shitty like lie about contraception. I'd be concerned about any adult who doesn't know all contraceptions have a failure rate (and being a very literal person, I tend to be more risk-averse because the stats pop up in my head on things like this, not less).

It's said those we know well are the ones who we will have the most gaps to seeing all of them because we build up a picture and continually confirm our biases around them and ignore what doesn't match. You clearly have a bias against Sarah and mixed bias around John. Unless you invented these people (and this thread has gone the way I've seen many writing threads where someone wants to make a nasty OW and people tell them how it just makes the man look worse), you can't say you absolutely know what's going on in their heads at any time. We don't know, and the only thing someone who is entirely an outsider can do is to keep an eye on the wellbeing of those involved, particularly those in this situation who are entirely innocent but will have had the worst impact.

@Nineteeneightynine

Maybe John coerced her into terminating those pregnancies and she felt able to keep this one because she wasn't under John's control any more. Did you think of that?

That was categorically not the case.

You cannot know this. The fact that when they were not in a relationship she chose to maintain the pregnancy would suggest that the terminations when they were together were heavily influenced by him. Both parties are thoroughly untrustworthy and if you are involved OP I'd recommend running for the hills, even if you have a child with him. Completely toxic set up: completely toxic man.

Anyone who genuinely works with autistic people wouldn't need this explaining to them.

No need to be rude. As I explained, I've had a slight career change since my work in the field of LD and autism and I also worked therapeutically (helping individuals with these difficulties to manage their emotions and cope with trauma) as opposed to diagnostically. Diagnosis was the psychiatrist's role - so from my (hazy memory!) understanding of the work he did, I don't ever recall a diagnosis of Aspergers requiring a score of greater than 70 on a formal IQ test. I recall working clinically with a number of people who (on paper at least) had both diagnoses - mild LD and Aspergers. So either something went wrong at the diagnostic stage with the psychiatrist, or these conditions co occurred.

It made for an interesting discussion.

An interesting gossip, you mean.

All of what you know about what Sarah wanted at any given point in time... is that something you know from Sarah herself? Or did John tell you that? Like he told you she claimed to be using contraception? I feel like you're desperately trying to convince yourself this is all Sarah's fault to make your relationship - sorry, your friends relationship with John more bearable.

John is a scumbag and Sarah's body/fertile years have nothing to do with you unfortunately.

Well, we know you're 32. And Sarah is similar age

No way is OP 32 unless it’s a man.
They’re either very young or very old as most women know that the implant isn’t 100% effective.

@VictoriousPlum

It made for an interesting discussion.

An interesting gossip, you mean.

This.

Johns GF will have a rocky road ahead of her, this wont be the last time he cheats. If you can cheat on your fiance when heavily pregnant with your child, then John will have no issue cheating again.

Good grief where did you pull all those assumptions from?

Where did you get your assumptions from?

If you are not Sarah or John you know just as much as anyone else on here as only those two know what truly happened.

@Marriedtothesilverfox

Maybe she just wanted him back? His own fault

Yes, she did, but waited over 2 years post split (which she instigated) to tell him that.. and only once he was set to marry and have a family with somebody else.

Its all a bit bizarre don't you think?

John is a snake, big time!