To think she had this baby out of spite?

[Nineteeneightynine]

Name changed because on the off chance the woman in question uses MN i don't want her knowing who i am by my posting history.

I'll call her Sarah.

Sarah was in a relationship with 'John' and the pair had a child. After 6 years together the relationship came to an end - but during the final 2 years of the relationship Sarah had multiple terminations of unplanned pregnancies because she didn't want more children and the pair were growing apart. The split, however, was instigated by her.

They broke up and 18 months later John met and began a relationship with somebody else. They got engaged and conceived a baby.

Sarah then decided she wanted him back after all.

At this point Sarah became even more difficult (think using her existing child as a weapon)

When Johns partner was heavily pregnant Sarah orchestrated a situation whereby she and John would be alone together, think special occasion under the guise of being for their child's benefit. Alcohol was involved.

Sarah made a pass at John, and because John is a selfish idiot and wasn't getting much 'action' at home with his heavily pregnant fiance, he reciprocated and they had a one night stand. John claims Sarah told him she was on the contraceptive implant so they didn't need to use a condom. John didn't question it and was happy to proceed without.

Soon after, very soon indeed, almost as if she was waiting to test, Sarah tells John she's pregnant and wants him to get back together with her "for their family" and try again.

John doesn't want to re-enter the relationship and wants to stay with his then current partner, who was expected to give birth any day.

Sarah decides that actually 'now' (then) is the perfect time to bring another child into the world and she would be having the baby regardless. Issues ultimatums. Briefly stops contact between John and his existing child when John says he doesn't want another.

Bare in mind that before the relationship ended, Sarah was adamant she didn't want any more children and exercised her right to terminate multiple pregnancies because the time wasn't right and the relationship was failing. It was only after seeing John settling down with somebody else she changed her mind.

Johns partner found out and was understandably crushed, now years later has to co-parent and see that (yes totally innocent) child on a regular basis.

WIBU to believe that Sarah, with all of the above taken into consideration, had this child out of spite?

You're not very nice are you? Neither is John. Frankly Sarah doundscthe best of the bunch but its close.

@Nineteeneightynine

Mumsnet is such a fickle place and changes like the wind.

Based on my experience of using the site for several years, I just know for a fact that if I were Sarah and I posted about this from her POV I would be torn to shreds.

"You can't use a baby to get somebody back"

"What was you thinking"

"You clearly have no self respect"

"If I were you I would consider my options, I wouldn't bring another child into this"

Basically, whoever is posting gets flamed irrespective of their position and who they are in the situation.

I am not John, Sarah or John's partner - I am essentially an innocent bystander - yet some of you have had a good go at ripping me to shreds

All of these things may be true but it doesn't negate the fact that John cheated. Or the fact he didn't use a condom.

He's at fault for cheating and for being daft enough not to use a condom, especially if Sarah has in fact had multiple pregnancies resulting in abortions.

@Relle1

I dont really get what you want out of the thread op? You say you made it to gauge other peoples perspective on the situation but when they dont side with john or think he is the worst of the two you instantly jump in to drag sarah

I was just curious as to whether anybody shared my POV.

I said myself from a few posts in that John was a selfish dick, among other things.

I just stood by my belief that she had less than good intentions.

Based on my experience of using the site for several years, I just know for a fact that if I were Sarah and I posted about this from her POV I would be torn to shreds.

You’re writing like you know the ins and outs of her life though.

Imagine Sarah’s POV:

• I broke up with my ex and we were at a party where we had too much to drink. He was going on about how much he loves me and wants to get back together with me.

We ended up having sex, i had the implant and asked him to use a condom too for extra protection but he said it’s ok as he would be happy to have another baby as he loves me so much. I then found out I was pregnant and we were both really happy but 3 years down the line his new gf/mum/little sister still has resentment as they can’t get over the fact that two consenting adults had sex and ended up with a baby.

@Nineteeneightynine he struggles with forms and reading? In what way does that prevent someone from knowing that you can impregnate women if you don't use a condom? If he's 'higher functioning' then he's a human as the rest of us are and he chose to cheat on his pregnant partner with his ex. He didn't give a fuck at the time.

LD don't mean people can be pricks without being held accountable.

@longwayoff

You're not very nice are you? Neither is John. Frankly Sarah doundscthe best of the bunch but its close.

Haha fuck me, of course she does.

So you're asking if it's spite but you said yourself it was because she wanted to try and win him back. That's your answer, it's in the OP. Spite would be fuck you im going to get pregnant to mess up your relationship but I don't want you either... not that she got pregnant on her own. Maybe she was on contraception, I could introduce you to plenty people who have become pregnant on the implant. Even if she wasn't, it sounds like, with his LD's it's about time someone sat down with John and explained that contraception isn't always reliable and about STD's as he doesn't seem aware if any of this. As he's vulnerable he probably needs more guidance from a parent or guardian. Sarah sounds pretty vulnerable too tbh. Does she have anyone to support her?

I just stood by my belief that she had less than good intentions.
So what if she did have less than good intentions? It's none of your business why anyone chooses to have a child, regardless of past abortions.

To think she had this baby out of spite?

I had one out of wedlock, and both out of my uterus.

John got caught because Sarah got pregnant, but I doubt this is the only time John has cheated on his new GF, its just he was found out and couldnt deny the evidence of a child.

[quote FatCatThinCat]www.researchgate.net/publication/8444085_Defining_the_Intellectual_Profile_of_Asperger_Syndrome_Comparison_with_High-Functioning_Autism[/quote]

This is a study from 17 years ago that compares 22 individuals with Aspergers with 12 individuals described as having high functioning autism (incredibly small sample size therefore reduced validity of findings); and looks at how they differ in terms of scores on certain IQ characteristics. It found that those with Aspergers overall showed higher verbal IQ abilities. You comment was that an IQ score of more than 70 is a part of the diagnostic criteria for Aspergers. How goes this article relate to that?

Can you show me in which diagnostic manual an IQ of less than 70 is part of the criteria for Aspergers?

John got caught because Sarah got pregnant, but I doubt this is the only time John has cheated on his new GF, its just he was found out and couldnt deny the evidence of a child.

Is this why you think she did it out of spite? To prove he cheated on his ex?

I find it very offensive that you are trying to imply that Aspergers makes someone less responsible for their own choices. We are fully functioning members of society. We often have academic intelligence far beyond the average individual. We aren’t fragile little creatures incapable of living our lives.

It doesn’t matter if Sarah was an evil temptress who cast a spell with her powerful lady parts. John is responsible for his actions and the damage done to his relationships and to all of his children.

@Nineteeneightynine 'I've had to laugh, they had a good go at personally attacking me despite me including absolutely no details about myself other than the fact I'm related'

Well, we know you're 32. And Sarah is similar age.
We know you question why women have abortions. And why they keep babies.

Can you show me in which diagnostic manual an IQ of less than 70 is part of the criteria for Aspergers?

Sorry that should be more than 70.

@FatCatThinCat

Is that part of the new DSM-V criteria for example? Genuinely asking as I'm somewhat out of touch due to a slight career change however I worked clinically in this domain for years.

I just stood by my belief that she had less than good intentions.

It doesn't matter. It is utterly irrelevant. Why are you clinging to it so desperately?

You are way over invested in this for someone who isn’t directly involved.

*Imagine Sarah’s POV:

• I broke up with my ex and we were at a party where we had too much to drink. He was going on about how much he loves me and wants to get back together with me.

We ended up having sex, i had the implant and asked him to use a condom too for extra protection but he said it’s ok as he would be happy to have another baby as he loves me so much.*

Good grief where did you pull all those assumptions from?

Not even Sarah herself ever suggested he said those things or that it happened that way.

@Lumpwoody

You are way over invested in this for someone who isn’t directly involved.

I'm really not.

It's a Sunday afternoon and it piqued an interesting debate after it came up in conversation.

I can assure you I'm pretty indifferent offline.

Not my circus not my monkeys, however like many posters on mumsnet, sometimes it's interesting to get a strangers take on things.

Well, we know you're 32. And Sarah is similar age

You would be wrong.

Quite amazing that you can judge a woman for having too many abortions while simultaneously judge her for not having more, OP.

The mental gymnastics it takes to be you is almost impressive.

No-ones intentions really matter do they, there's just a lot of innocent kids dragged into a situation by a load of selfish drama queens/kings

This smells like the way my ex and his family used to pick apart our marriage. And say he wasn’t abusive it was all down to me that we had the kids they were all accidents and I was a scarlet woman.

He is completely responsible for not having used a condom and his Aspergers or autism isn’t so bad he can’t work and function so I don’t see how you’re getting blaming Sarah for everything.

@VodselForDinner

Quite amazing that you can judge a woman for having too many abortions while simultaneously judge her for not having more, OP.

The mental gymnastics it takes to be you is almost impressive.

I have never suggested she should have aborted the youngest child, merely questioned why after having numerous terminations when actually circumstances were better - she would then decide to continue with that particular pregnancy when the circumstances that time were much worse and more complicated.