Nine years for starving a baby to death

[PropertyFlipper]

I’m struggling to see the justice here. This sorry specimen will be out in five years no doubt. Devastating.
Teen mother, 19, bursts into tears as she is jailed for nine years

@carriehagshaw

I dont understand people saying there was no intent to kill? If someone left an adult tied to a chair in a room for almost a week with no food or water it would show that they wanted them to die. That would be murder wouldnt it?

I can't think what her intent could have been other than for the child to die.

This might help you.

www.ashmanssolicitors.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-murder-and-manslaughter-in-uk-law/

Blue wander, that's a powerful article, and very surprising for the guardian just how much it mentions state intervention.

Daphne yes, of course those are the reasons and I'm sure I could add lots mote reasons too boot but due to her age and the apparent abuse she suffered and the involvement of the authorities, one wonders...

If it wasn't too late why it wasn't made clear how hard it is to parent, and strong encouragement to terminate or adopt immediately.

That's what I meant.

Blue wander it's interesting how that article also states the battle was 95% cultural in the dept as in attitudes and then literally cultural with the out sourcing of sw jobs to those from over seas with different standard of child rearing.

@Panickingpavlova I'm sure any social worker advising a client to terminate a pregnancy or give the child up for adoption would be hauled before a disciplinary panel before they knew what hit them.

Thankyou for that article @bluewanda, makes total sense. With her mum she could cope as mum probably did the hard stuff. But as soon as she was on her own she just basically lived like a carefree teen

If I can refer back to my comment about a good/improving c.p,system pre the closure of family centres, devastation of support services…. I should have made clear I wasn’t suggesting things were perfect. My point was that the absence of services has led to an increase in children in care, it’s clear this 3 year old should have been removed from her mother had ‘the system’ been functioning. So, as others have said, should baby P and others.

Social workers are damned if they remove, damned if they don’t. I’ve read news reports and been angry, incredulous that children have been left in situations where they were hungry, terrified, in pain, being abused in every way possible. I don’t understand why ‘the wheel’ is constantly reinvented where safeguarding is concerned. In the 80’s a book called Dangeroys Families was published. Written by workers at Rochdale nspcc. It was ground breaking for many working with children and families. Then of course, castigated for being ‘anti parent’. It wasn’t. It was child focussed. That’s what’s needed

It's also clear that people abusing their children/not coping/neglecting them etc are usually lying about it, not fessing up to any person in authority telling them and asking for help. Well, obviously there are people who do but those are not the usually the people who end up killing their children.

It must be a difficult tightrope to walk between taking children away and leaving them in suboptimal conditions with their families. There isn't a never ending stream of willing people to take already damaged children into their homes and care homes are not really the answer either.

It must be incredibly stressful and difficult knowing what is lies and what is the truth and what is the best action to take.

The problem is is, remove the them to where?

We don't seem to be able to improve life chances through our care system.

I also think we need much more pressure on people to report, especially in families or friends, in schools and so on.

It's breaking the cycle and making having children an unattractive prospect rather than a way of life for people who just want cute babies and not actual children. Don't get me wrong, DH and I were both born into large families and in poverty and life wasn't perfect, my parents never raised a hand to any of us. DHs mum was handy with her slippers with her 5 boys but his dad barely ever raised his voice but could control them better. All the DC have grown up to have houses and families of their own, none in social housing, all decent earners and with children working or in Uni. It's not poverty that's really the issue necessarily.

Also, rumours of her using social media hours/days after her baby's death just shows how callous this individual is.

Yes. And makes all of the "but she should have been supported better" comments even more jarring. Yes, lots of parents who love their children but struggle could do with additional support and I'm absolutely in favour of that. But no amount of support would make somebody this cruel and callous into a decent parent.

@Kanaloa

She did know that her actions had resulted in her child’s death though. She came home, took the bins out, spent two hours in the house with her child’s dead body and then rang an ambulance saying her child had been unwell all day, she had given her milk and calpol and let her sleep and now the child wouldn’t wake.

If she thought it was okay to leave a child she would have phoned an ambulance and said I went on a six day holiday and came back and now my child won’t wake up. She knew ‘calpol and milk’ was more in line with what people would want to hear. She knew she couldn’t tell anyone what she’d really done.

If you hide something or lie about it you know it’s wrong. She knew this was wrong. So the idea that her bad upbringing made her incapable of seeing that this was wrong doesn’t really wash, she knew it was wrong when she might get caught. It makes me so cross - it’s my experience that those of us who know the suffering of hunger and pain are that much more careful not to inflict it.

I absolutely agree. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

The mother of that child that died was severely neglected and abused throughout her whole childhood. She had no experience whatsoever of what a healthy functioning family unit should look like. And her brain was damaged by abuse.

If she had brain damage that incapacitated her she would have been deemed unfit to stand trial and sent to a hospital not a prison.

As many posters have said, lots of us survived childhoods similar to this and didn't abuse, neglect or kill our own children. These comments are really offensive.

This is NOT me defending her I think she should be imprisoned however I honestly think she thought the baby would live.

Her behaviour when she returned from her holiday doesn't support this. Two hours before she called an ambulance. Selling concert tickets online later that day. Entering modelling competitions instead of grieving for her daughter. I really don't understand how people cannot see how monstrous it is. I bet Ted Bundy would have become a pillar of society too if only he'd had more "support".

really don't understand how people cannot see how monstrous it is. I bet Ted Bundy would have become a pillar of society too if only he'd had more "support".

She's female though eh and that means in some people's eyes she therefore can't be blamed. The amount that are saying the child's father is also to blame is also ridiculous. Yes he is to blame for something and that could be anything from rape/child abuse/grooming to choosing not to be involved. You cannot however pin this on someone who had no clue it was happening or potentially even that they have a child. It might have been better for him not to be involved regardless.

The mother of that child that died was severely neglected and abused throughout her whole childhood

So was I and many others, you don't see us endangering the lives of our babies so we can go and have a knees up.

She had no experience whatsoever of what a healthy functioning family unit should look like

Again, nor did I or many others.

It's not an excuse, or a reason.

People have to break the cycle. 18 is plenty old enough to know that you don't leave a defenceless baby alone for any significant period of time.

I think the point is that the crushing responsibility of caring for babies which are the result of teenage pregnancies seems to fall overwhelmingly on the teenage mother, who is often the victim of rape, neglect and abuse. Meanwhile, the father gets to continue on with his carefree life as if nothing has happened.

Of course, this still doesn't excuse this young mother's behaviour or the incredible suffering she inflicted on the poor baby. But it's strange to talk about "if a man had done this..." because it's almost inconceivable to think of an 18 year old boy being left with the huge responsibility of caring for a baby by themselves in these circumstances. So the comparison doesn't work.

@abcdeg

We don't know that at all. She may have been at a party, but she could have been there as an exploited sex slave (or she could have been there entirely of her own free will). I wonder who was paying for all this travel and partying...

But this is just nonsense though. We know what happened, people were with her. We don't need to suggest scenarios when we actually know.

Can you explain why a sex slave held against her will, who had no control over leaving her child:

-was captured on CCTV leaving and returning without calling anyone
-told people her mum had her baby

• was on YouTube and Twitter, making videos and applying for PLT modelling

Even if she was a, 'sex slave' (which is highly unlikely) she, at the absolute minimum left the flat ALONE and that was her untrafficked opportunity to tell staff, call her family or call the police and inform them she had left her baby alone. Even a 7 year old would know you need food and water. If she lacked the capacity to even know that I doubt she could have partied across the country. She is evil and tortured her child to death.

@Generalpost

Social services are to busy with familys that don't need them. Or only Need a small amount of support. So the children that are at heigh risk get forgotten about and sometimes end up abused or dead . It's OK though because Social services has managed to that other mum to stop putting odd socks on her child and buy brown bread instead of white.

I don't think this is the case at all. Parents who've had dealings from social services tend to downplay their actions and insist they were targeted for no reason.

Obviously there is a lot more to this story than just what happened to that poor baby.
It seems likely the mother’s ‘6 day party’ was being funded by someone. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was being trafficked or was involved in some nasty stuff. She was abused and the child was likely born from rape. While there is no reasons/excuses for killing an innocent baby I think it’s important to look at the incident as a whole, if for no other reason that future prevention.

Even if she was a, 'sex slave'

Surely if she was, it would have come out at the trial and been mentioned in the judge’s comments?

@bluewanda

Even if she was a, 'sex slave'

Surely if she was, it would have come out at the trial and been mentioned in the judge’s comments?

The sentencing remarks havent been published yet, to my knowledge. The Daily Mail included a small extract of them.

No one - mother or father - need be involved with a child theyve created if they dont want to..,,
I don’t know the circumstances but the statement above assumes the mother wasn’t raped or abused etc.
There will be some reason she hadn’t bonded with baby and this could be it. No excuse for the child not being taken off her, none at all. Left alone 11 times surely shows she was not a responsible mother. Devastating

Generalpost
Social services are to busy with familys that don't need them. Or only Need a small amount of support. So the children that are at heigh risk get forgotten about and sometimes end up abused or dead . It's OK though because Social services has managed to that other mum to stop putting odd socks on her child and buy brown bread instead of white.

genuinely concerned about your thought process if you believe this!

It seems likely the mother’s ‘6 day party’ was being funded by someone. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was being trafficked

I think many posters seem to have a wildly exaggerated idea of how much things cost

Return train tickets to Brighton and Coventry were probably around £40 in total, assuming she paid the fares and didn’t skive. She had dinner in a restaurant with her boyfriend (who probably picked up the tab as it was her birthday). She went to a club night in Elephant and Castle, which would have cost peanuts if she got drunk beforehand at a friend’s flat to save buying drinks in the club. That’s what I did at that age. Let’s say £20.

She then went to a party in Coventry, which I’m presuming was at someone’s house, given there’s no mention of a venue for that - cost to her, £0. And then stayed at a friend’s flat in London before returning to Brighton. There’s no mention of any hotels or anything so I assume she stayed with friends or her boyfriend on the other nights too. Total cost assuming what I’ve said is correct: £60.

where is the responsibility and love supposed to cone from. If she's not seen it moddled, doesn't understand it?

My parents didn't love me or show responsibility or teach me anything. I adore my children and they are well looked after. All of these "explanations" are bogus.