Page 22 | Nine years for starving a baby to death

PropertyFlipper · 2021-08-06T14:07:27+00:00

I’m struggling to see the justice here. This sorry specimen will be out in five years no doubt. Devastating. Teen mother, 19, bursts into tears as she is jailed for nine years

HarrisMcCoo · 07/08/2021 08:30

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Blossomtoes · 07/08/2021 08:34

She could have assumed someone from the supported living establishment would look after her, for example

On what basis would she assume that? Was she expecting that the childcare fairies would just magically show up? That’s what you seem to be implying. It’s not even that she had no support network and there was nobody to look after her child, she just chose not to use it - 11 times.

Mookie81 · 07/08/2021 08:40

@RevolvingPivot

There was talk about sex trafficking maybe she wanted to get home but couldn't

It's reported as she was out celebrating her birthday. But if you read further into that and the other times she was away, it suggests there was a more nefarious reason she was out those times; another abusive situation.

Lockheart · 07/08/2021 08:42

@Blossomtoes

She could have assumed someone from the supported living establishment would look after her, for example

On what basis would she assume that? Was she expecting that the childcare fairies would just magically show up? That’s what you seem to be implying. It’s not even that she had no support network and there was nobody to look after her child, she just chose not to use it - 11 times.

As I said in my post, testing whether that was reasonable in court would have involved looking at what happened on the previous occasions she was left alone.

I don't have the details on that so I can't comment on how reasonable an assumption it was. Maybe someone had stepped in on previous occasions, maybe they hadn't.

Maybe she didn't even assume someone would step in, perhaps she only intended to be away for a day (for example) but got so off her face on whatever that she was out of her mind for the next few days.

And no, I'm not saying the above is a good thing, before another member of the intelligentsia accuse me of that. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference between actual intent to kill and a series of avoidable and obvious mistakes. One is murder, the other is manslaughter.

You can't prove intent to kill beyond reasonable doubt by stamping your foot and screaming "but it's obvious!".

HarrisMcCoo · 07/08/2021 08:43

Another way of looking at it is she managed to keep the baby alive for 22 months. That does take some amount of intelligence to know when to feed the baby, change a nappy, buy new clothes etc. She's just upset she got caught out.

Also, rumours of her using social media hours/days after her baby's death just shows how callous this individual is.

hedgehogger1 · 07/08/2021 08:48

@HarrysChild

I wonder what support is meant to be offered in “supported accommodation”, does anyone know? If there were zero checks or contact made over a period of 6 days, it doesn’t sound like much. No idea if it should be more or if that’s standard.

They had a weekly meeting for a couple of hours to support with getting into work etc. The flats were completely independent and the people running them had no idea she'd left the baby before

Blossomtoes · 07/08/2021 08:50

You can't prove intent to kill beyond reasonable doubt by stamping your foot and screaming "but it's obvious!".

Which I’m not doing. Obviously she didn’t intend to kill, as in deliberately set out to do it but it’s not an entirely unexpected outcome.

You’re not pointing out the difference between murder and manslaughter at all. You’re making excuses for the inexcusable.

Lockheart · 07/08/2021 08:53

@Blossomtoes

You can't prove intent to kill beyond reasonable doubt by stamping your foot and screaming "but it's obvious!".

Which I’m not doing. Obviously she didn’t intend to kill, as in deliberately set out to do it but it’s not an entirely unexpected outcome.

You’re not pointing out the difference between murder and manslaughter at all. You’re making excuses for the inexcusable.

Pointing out the difference between murder and manslaughter was literally the whole of my post.

Just because I'm not sharpening the pitchfork and firing up my torch doesn't mean I'm making excuses. It's possible to condem what has happened whilst at the same time having an appreciation for why it has happened and why the sentence is what it is.

It's more constructive to look at the context and work out how to fix things properly than simply seek revenge. But it's just not as fun as good old-fashioned ignorance and outrage, is it.

Blossomtoes · 07/08/2021 08:59

You don’t need to point out the difference @Lockheart. I understand it. Thank you for being so patronising. And rude. And you most definitely are making excuses. There simply aren’t any that wash.

MichelleScarn · 07/08/2021 09:00

and no, I'm not saying the above is agoodthing, before another member of the intelligentsia accuse me of that. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference between actual intent to kill and a series of avoidable and obvious mistakes. One is murder, the other is manslaughter.

'Avoidable and obvious mistakes'?! A mistake?!! She killed her child, that's not a mistake.

If you're going to use such trite wording I presume that's fully aimed at the mother.
-she could have called SS to say she can't cope initially
-she could have said to her family, support staff to say this
-she could have called ANYONE even 999 at ANY point over her 6 day long party to say her child was left alone, even an anonymous call.
But she didn't, and even when she knew she'd killed her child she was all over social media pouting for a modelling competition.
Yes absolutely fucking avoidable but to call any of that a mistake is incredulous.

Kanaloa · 07/08/2021 09:01

She did know that her actions had resulted in her child’s death though. She came home, took the bins out, spent two hours in the house with her child’s dead body and then rang an ambulance saying her child had been unwell all day, she had given her milk and calpol and let her sleep and now the child wouldn’t wake.

If she thought it was okay to leave a child she would have phoned an ambulance and said I went on a six day holiday and came back and now my child won’t wake up. She knew ‘calpol and milk’ was more in line with what people would want to hear. She knew she couldn’t tell anyone what she’d really done.

If you hide something or lie about it you know it’s wrong. She knew this was wrong. So the idea that her bad upbringing made her incapable of seeing that this was wrong doesn’t really wash, she knew it was wrong when she might get caught. It makes me so cross - it’s my experience that those of us who know the suffering of hunger and pain are that much more careful not to inflict it.

CounsellorTroi · 07/08/2021 09:03

@Roselilly36

Absolutely horrendous case, that poor little one, failed by her mum & the the system. All so she could go and party.

It sounds like the system failed her too.

CounsellorTroi · 07/08/2021 09:03

The mother I meant.

Lockheart · 07/08/2021 09:04

@Blossomtoes

You don’t need to point out the difference *@Lockheart*. I understand it. Thank you for being so patronising. And rude. And you most definitely are making excuses. There simply aren’t any that wash.

I'm not sure you know what making excuses means.

It doesn't mean 'anything anyone says which I don't want to have to think about'.

The scenarios I gave above weren't excuses. They were hypothetical scenarios to explain why the mother may have had a different thought process to the one you assumed and why it was a manslaughter, not a murder, conviction which was handed down.

She was still sentenced for manslaughter, and rightly so in my opinion.

Topofthepopicles · 07/08/2021 09:14

@Kanaloa

She did know that her actions had resulted in her child’s death though. She came home, took the bins out, spent two hours in the house with her child’s dead body and then rang an ambulance saying her child had been unwell all day, she had given her milk and calpol and let her sleep and now the child wouldn’t wake.

If she thought it was okay to leave a child she would have phoned an ambulance and said I went on a six day holiday and came back and now my child won’t wake up. She knew ‘calpol and milk’ was more in line with what people would want to hear. She knew she couldn’t tell anyone what she’d really done.

If you hide something or lie about it you know it’s wrong. She knew this was wrong. So the idea that her bad upbringing made her incapable of seeing that this was wrong doesn’t really wash, she knew it was wrong when she might get caught. It makes me so cross - it’s my experience that those of us who know the suffering of hunger and pain are that much more careful not to inflict it.

There is a difference between knowing something is wrong and being able to predict the consequences.

My child could tell you splashing in the bath isn’t allowed, would act guilty if water gets on the floor, but doesn’t understand it could ruin the ceiling.

I know that’s a cold example for something so serious but not being able to understand consequences as an older teen/adult is one of the areas that therapeutically parenting adopted children is meant to address and work on. She probably never had any meaningful parenting, therapeutic or not.

Topofthepopicles · 07/08/2021 09:16

The consequences were horrific. Truly appalling. But calling her evil is an easy way of dismissing how these crimes happen and absolves society of our responsibilities.

Oilyoilyoilgob · 07/08/2021 09:17

She managed to keep this poor, poor baby alive for 22 months.

And I will bet everything I own that this woman ate and drank in the five days her child was dying.

Blossomtoes · 07/08/2021 09:18

I'm not sure you know what making excuses means. It doesn't mean 'anything anyone says which I don't want to have to think about'.

Please just stop with the rudeness. It really isn’t necessary.

The fact is that child was left alone 11 times. Her mother had a support network she chose not to use. She lied about leaving her and faked evidence that she was there when her child died. She was culpable. That’s the bottom line and she knew she was which is why she attempted to cover it up.

Lockheart · 07/08/2021 09:19

Avoidable and obvious mistakes'?! A mistake?!! She killed her child, that's not a mistake.

Of course you can kill your child by mistake. You can give them a wrong dose of medicine, or drop them, or reverse your car without realising they're behind it, or forget they're in the car on a hot day, or forget the door to the pool is open. All it takes is one lapse of judgement or moment of forgetfulness.

All of the above avoidable mistakes, with no intent to kill.

In this case it was a very bloody stupid mistake to leave Asiah alone for so long. Or a very stupid series of mistakes.

But without intention to kill, it's still "accidental" - manslaughter, not murder.

If the courts had decided it wasn't a mistake, it would have been murder.

Kanaloa · 07/08/2021 09:19

Well I don’t believe she didn’t know this was dangerous. If she was that mentally incapable then how on earth did she manage to feed herself for six days, travel to London while making connections etc. I don’t think she necessarily meant to kill the child but she knew she was being neglectful. I do agree the child should have been removed from her immediately but she wouldn’t have hidden that the child was home alone if she didn’t know it was wrong to leave her there.

I had no meaningful parenting either, and managed not to starve any of my kids to death so I could go on a six day holiday. She is a selfish person who neglected her daughter so she could have her way - I think it has little to do with age. It’s the type of thing my mother would have done at 30, some people are just utterly selfish.

gingganggooleywotsit · 07/08/2021 09:21

[quote MichelleScarn]@ExpressDelivery ExpressDelivery

l can't find it in me to feel anything but sympathy for this mother. There but for the grace...

*December 5, 2019: Kudi leaves Asiah alone in the Brighton flat to head to London. She meets her boyfriend for dinner in Fulham and tells pals her mum is looking after the baby.

December 6: She eats at Donut Shack with friends in Putney, South West London
December 7: Kudi attends a Juiced 90s concert in Elephant and Castle with a pal
December 9: The mum travels to Coventry with her boyfriend and others to help celebrate a friend’s birthday.
December 10: Kudi heads back to London and stays overnight at a friend's flat.
December 11: She catches a train back to Brighton and pops into M&S before heading back to Asiah at the flat.*
So you'd have done all this partying and socialis knowing your baby was alone with no food or water, and slowly dying?[/quote]
Unbelievable. She obviously had plenty of money, friends, a boyfriend, knew how to get herself around the country...not so stupid that she couldn’t understand her baby would starve if she didn’t feed her? Those falling over themselves to excuse her behaviour should take a good look at this. Her daughter suffered unimaginable pain and agony. Starving to death is one of the most painful, slow deaths there are. No excuses

Lockheart · 07/08/2021 09:21

Please just stop with the rudeness. It really isn’t necessary.

Neither is telling me I'm making excuses when I'm not.

Kanaloa · 07/08/2021 09:21

Also, she would have fed the child when she was at home. So she would be aware that her child ate x times a day, and would know that while she was away the child wouldn’t be eating at all. She would have been able to understand that she was causing suffering to her child even if she didn’t think it would kill her.

Mookie81 · 07/08/2021 09:21

@GreatAuntEmily

People have voted, time and again, for cuts to local authorities over the last decade. And then they cry crocodile tears and express outrage Imv people don't vote for cuts. We have no opposition at the moment so no alternative exists. I vote for the best option for women's rights but I'd happily vote for women's rights and tax rises if some party proposed tHat.

Women's rights from a party that cuts support to abused women and children through decimating social services, language services, Surestart, CAMHS, etc? But as long as you get called 'mother' on a piece of paper eh?

Topofthepopicles · 07/08/2021 09:22

@Kanaloa

Well I don’t believe she didn’t know this was dangerous. If she was that mentally incapable then how on earth did she manage to feed herself for six days, travel to London while making connections etc. I don’t think she necessarily meant to kill the child but she knew she was being neglectful. I do agree the child should have been removed from her immediately but she wouldn’t have hidden that the child was home alone if she didn’t know it was wrong to leave her there.

I had no meaningful parenting either, and managed not to starve any of my kids to death so I could go on a six day holiday. She is a selfish person who neglected her daughter so she could have her way - I think it has little to do with age. It’s the type of thing my mother would have done at 30, some people are just utterly selfish.

I’m sorry your mum was like that. Honestly though, looking at care leaver figures and prison rates, you are the exception not the rule.