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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Nine years for starving a baby to death

999 replies

PropertyFlipper · 06/08/2021 15:07

I’m struggling to see the justice here. This sorry specimen will be out in five years no doubt. Devastating.
Teen mother, 19, bursts into tears as she is jailed for nine years

OP posts:
yacketyyak · 06/08/2021 23:59

Nothing to add other than this is just so so tragic.
I cant stop thinking about that poor little baby's pain and fear.

There are so many stories like this at the moment. That one in Belfast last week where the mother seems to have killed her 8 week old baby son... I've never felt sadder reading about this. What's going on in the world??

EspressoDoubleShot · 07/08/2021 00:04

@PolkadotClouds opinions regard child protection vary from
SW is an agent of oppressive state control and a conspiracy theory abounds that it’s all a dark rouse to steal children to order. Therefore SW. must be curtailed and not allowed to remove children
After tragic events, the narrative can become
Why wasn’t more done? They shouldn’t allow children to stay with the parent. Change the law! Let’s not allow anyone a chance.

EspressoDoubleShot · 07/08/2021 00:07

Being humane and empathic does not equal making excuses yiu really need to understand the difference
Of course her acts are abhorrent, they didn’t arise in isolation, there was most likely was a chain of events in the mother’s adolescence that impacted upon her
One can abhor an act, and still retain ability to think about all affected in a humane way

Gwlondon · 07/08/2021 00:09

@ExpressDelivery

The first thing I'd do would be to pay foster carers (maybe not as carers but certainly as enhanced lodgers) to keep children until 21. Very few other people are completely on their own from their 18th birthday. Some are effectively abandoned at 16yo.
I agree. You only get support until 21 if you are in full time education. So care leavers need to be guided at age 14 so that they don’t find themselves at 16 with no support.

Also more foster carers from wide ranging families.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 00:27

[quote EspressoDoubleShot]@PolkadotClouds opinions regard child protection vary from
SW is an agent of oppressive state control and a conspiracy theory abounds that it’s all a dark rouse to steal children to order. Therefore SW. must be curtailed and not allowed to remove children
After tragic events, the narrative can become
Why wasn’t more done? They shouldn’t allow children to stay with the parent. Change the law! Let’s not allow anyone a chance.[/quote]
Opinions on it shouldn't factor into policy making is my point. It should be evidence-based. There's plenty of robust, long-term evidence from other countries that a lower threshold for removal and a properly funded care system and social services results in better outcomes for the vast majority of children at risk. It's really not that complicated: we don't have to reinvent the wheel, there are legal and funding and structural service models and protocols we can replicate that are proven to lead to far better outcomes. If people say they care about minimising the number of times this happens then email your MPs en masse and demand it, mobilise people not to vote for any candidate who isn't pledged to prioritise specific funds for ensuring an adequate child protection system.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 00:28

@EspressoDoubleShot

Being humane and empathic does not equal making excuses yiu really need to understand the difference Of course her acts are abhorrent, they didn’t arise in isolation, there was most likely was a chain of events in the mother’s adolescence that impacted upon her One can abhor an act, and still retain ability to think about all affected in a humane way
I wish the mother had thought about her daughter in a humane way.
PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 00:35

[quote bluewanda]This is the video I’m talking about:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-48962296[/quote]
I hadn't seen this or read about it before you posted it and it's upset me so much. That tiny little boy, so fragile, suffering 41 fractures in his 3 week life. Being in all that pain and not understanding why. Violent, drunk adults screaming and fighting and not caring about his pain. Seen by a consultant and police but left there to die.

Surely nobody can say child protection law is fit for purpose if something like this can happen and afterwards all professionals involved can say that they did everything by the book??

50ShadesOfCatholic · 07/08/2021 00:52

@PolkadotClouds

Reading between the lines of the judge's comments, it appears the mother is of limited intelligence and competence. She did not understand that leaving her child for days would kill her.

If that is the conclusion of the authorities then how was she discharged from SS caseload into very light-touch supported accommodation with sole responsibility for a baby?

It isn't the "conclusion of authorities", it is the sentencing judge's findings. These are far more authoritative than a local government's decisions.
MobyDicksTinyCanoe · 07/08/2021 00:54

She must have had something about her to get custody of her child back and get ss off her back. She obviously wasnt stupid and had the ability to manipulate professionals.

The naive, young mum, overwhelmed and resentful so she ran bollocks being spouted on here doesn't wash with me. She knew what she was doing when she told social swrvices what they wanted to hear. She'd have also known that having her child in her care meant a secure roof over her head and extra money in her arse pocket. She wanted all of that, she just didnt want to take care of the responsibility that came with it, which will be why she didnt just give her up when she had the chance.

50ShadesOfCatholic · 07/08/2021 00:57

@PolkadotClouds

No-one is making "excuses" for the mother, they are pointing that she too is a failed child. She was extremely vulnerable and inadequately supported. Those are the facts. Denying these facts breeds ignorance and more tragedy. We need to hear from everyone involved in order to learn. No-one is born evil but many are failed in childhood and go on to become damaged and to damage others.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 00:59

No-one is making "excuses" for the mother, they are pointing that she too is a failed child. She was extremely vulnerable and inadequately supported. Those are the facts.

As were many of us. I'm all for us finding ways to stop failing children.

Pretending that someone having been failed as a child themselves is somehow a mitigating factor for them starving their child to death, however, is totally offensive and ridiculous.

MobyDicksTinyCanoe · 07/08/2021 01:00

Limited intelligence is no excuse. I know mums who also have learning difficulties. As in they attended special needs school their entire school lives and their difficulties are obvious just when talking to them. Theyre also excellent and devoted parents who had to fight really hard to prove themselves.

The sentence this girl recieved is appalling, she should have got a lot longer.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 01:01

It isn't the "conclusion of authorities", it is the sentencing judge's findings. These are far more authoritative than a local government's decisions.

So your interpretations of the judge's comments is that social services judgements were wrong, as I have been saying? You can't have it both ways.

JustLyra · 07/08/2021 01:07

@MobyDicksTinyCanoe

Limited intelligence is no excuse. I know mums who also have learning difficulties. As in they attended special needs school their entire school lives and their difficulties are obvious just when talking to them. Theyre also excellent and devoted parents who had to fight really hard to prove themselves.

The sentence this girl recieved is appalling, she should have got a lot longer.

How can you possibly state so definitively that you know better than the judge, who has that fill facts (including the reasons behind their assertion that she never intended to kill or seriously harm her child hence it being manslaughter rather than murder)??
JustLyra · 07/08/2021 01:08

*full facts

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 01:27

@JustLyra judges make decisions based on law and legal precedent.

Much of this thread is a discussion about whether than law and precedent (and the systems that investigate/ report/ enforce it) are a) correctly funded but also b) set up appropriately with a sensible level of safeguarding in place in balance against family privacy/ individual legal rights etc.

The argument that I and others have been making is that the bar is set too low for intervention, and the system is insufficiently funded (and not set up in the right way in terms of structure and protocols) to minimise harm to children, and provide an acceptable alternative to leaving children with negligent or abusive parents.

To change this would require change in law. Judges cannot do that, all they can do is interpret if something fits within the law as it stands. Judges are often forced to make decisions they might think wrong/ immoral because their job is not to make that judgement, but to ensure the current law is applied appropriately.

It is the law and the structure, funding and remit of social services that needs to change.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 01:31

[quote PolkadotClouds]@JustLyra judges make decisions based on law and legal precedent.

Much of this thread is a discussion about whether than law and precedent (and the systems that investigate/ report/ enforce it) are a) correctly funded but also b) set up appropriately with a sensible level of safeguarding in place in balance against family privacy/ individual legal rights etc.

The argument that I and others have been making is that the bar is set too low for intervention, and the system is insufficiently funded (and not set up in the right way in terms of structure and protocols) to minimise harm to children, and provide an acceptable alternative to leaving children with negligent or abusive parents.

To change this would require change in law. Judges cannot do that, all they can do is interpret if something fits within the law as it stands. Judges are often forced to make decisions they might think wrong/ immoral because their job is not to make that judgement, but to ensure the current law is applied appropriately.

It is the law and the structure, funding and remit of social services that needs to change.[/quote]
I.e. people must lobby their MPs if they want this to be any different.

It is possible to say that this outcome was wrong at every stage (leaving the child with the mother at birth with little supervision, not removing her later when she wasn't being cared for, the sentence given to the mother being an absolute joke) without saying we know better than the judge. The judge applies the law as it stands.

The law is not sufficient to protect vulnerable children to an acceptable degree.

JustLyra · 07/08/2021 01:43

@PolkadotClouds If you’d read my posts you’d see that funding for proper services is, particularly as someone who had a horrifically abusive childhood and was failed multiple times by social services, I’m firmly behind.

The point I was making was that the PP stated that limited intelligence is no mitigation and that the sentence is too low despite the fact they have no knowledge, none of us do, of the details of why the judge very clearly said that there was no intent on the mother’s behalf and why they opted for that tariff. Until the full facts are known it’s not possible to say that the judge was wrong as that PP did.

Making sweeping judgements about declaring nothing should be considered in these cases is, as I’ve said multiple times on the thread, dangerous. It allows the “they’re evil” tag to be placed and then people can dodge and hide from what could and should have been done.

JustLyra · 07/08/2021 01:44

But do continue with the utterly patronising tone if it makes you feel better Hmm

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 02:10

@JustLyra

But do continue with the utterly patronising tone if it makes you feel better Hmm
Likewise. From a fellow survivor of childhood abuse. There's no reason to speak to people like that and get personal. I was speaking about factual, structural things that need to change.
PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 02:12

And by the way I was also failed by social services, teachers, police, everyone. You are not the only person with an informed or valid perspective.

JustLyra · 07/08/2021 02:37

@PolkadotClouds

And by the way I was also failed by social services, teachers, police, everyone. You are not the only person with an informed or valid perspective.
I didn’t say I was.

I also didn’t feel the need to explain to someone who has contributed throughout the thread what the thread had been about, it was you who turned it personal with that tone.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 02:45

Nope.

But do continue with the utterly patronising tone if it makes you feel better

It was you that started making offensive personal comments.

PolkadotClouds · 07/08/2021 02:53

I wasn't "explaining what the thread was about." 🤣🙄 I was pointing out that your comments to people saying "oh, so you know more than the judge?" to people who disagree with how this has been handled and the sentence given are not the "gotcha" you think they are, because all a judge can do is enforce the status quo in law and current system whereas what is needed is complete overhall of both of those.

Your argument was diningenuous and appeared to be an attempt to shut down people's discussion about the changes needed on the flawed logic that if a judge says this is what should happen because that's the current law then it must be the right thing to be happening and we can't do any better than that, as a society.

I don't agree so I said so and explained why.

If you find that patronising then so be it.

JustLyra · 07/08/2021 02:54

No.

judges make decisions based on law and legal precedent.

You made it personal by speaking to me like I’m an idiot. You then continued it by explaining to me what a thread I’ve contributed on has been about…

Patronising someone in such a rude way is personal and offensive.

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