To not give in & clean the kitchen, before environmental health is called

[Debbiethemum]

DH & I agreed months ago that he would be responsible for cleaning the kitchen & bathroom, I would do the rest of the house and the laundry.

I have given in and cleaned those two rooms a couple of times (just before visitors were expected). BUT I am getting sick of it.

MIL is coming for the weekend and even I can't bear the kitchen any more in it's current state.

How much nagging is OK and what deadline should I give him.

Oh yes, I too am not an installer of white kitchens. it was a cheapo one but in by the builders. And I detest beyond anything my white sink mainly because it is not very white.

If you count clearing up the crumbs when you have made a sandwich or whatever, then yes we do clean our kitchen everyday. but my definition is like blu's.

Some of the feminist leftie arguments against cleaners (and I must emphasise that we have had cleaners in the past and I do know that these arguments aren't conclusive and I have absolutely no criticism of those who do have cleaners - but for me (and DP):

in an ideal feminist world there would be a fair division of household labour and childcare between each adult in the household (leaving aside children for now) regardless of their gender. So in a heterosexual household, a fair division of childcare, cleaning, paid work etc between the couple.

if the man isn't/won't/forgets etc to do cleaning then sourcing the gender disparity out to a 3rd party is not an ideal solution. Instead the man should be doing more cleaning. so it shelves the gendered division of housework rather than solving it.

that's one of the issues. there are others.

Fennel - LOLOL. Brilliant .

well Anna I hardly expected you to agree.

But Fennel, what if both parties are willing to do their fair share but agree that by outsourcing some of the tasks,they both have more time to devote to their family?

Well, no, I'm not greatly in favour of men being forced into doing more household chores in the name of equality.

As a full-blooded capitalist I think everyone should be employed to the best of their abilities and be able to outsource to others (also working to the best of their abilities) the things they are less good at .

Yes Jelliebelly that would be a different issues.

which moves us on to the old 70's feminist arguemnts about class and power and middle class women outsourcing their domestic tasks to working class women who don't have much choice in what sort of work they do or how well they are paid for it.

again, it's not an irrefutable argument, I know that. But these are issues which bother me, and personally it's very important to me to have a DP who is prepared to do half the childcare and housework. Enough that I'd rather be single than have a DP who wasn't, IMO, pulling his weight, domestically. I know not everyone feels like this. But for me I'd rather have the fairly regular tussles over cleaning the kitchen than get a cleaner.

bollocks to that

In that case feminists think I should be cleaning

I hate cleaning

I guess it will come as little surprise to reveal that I'm not a capitalist

I would try shutting the kitchen door and eating out until he cleans it.

Fennel - Are you allowed to buy ready-meals, drink coffee in a cafe if the waitress is female, use a childminder or nursery that employs a majority of females. I try to buy Fairtrade goods wear possible but I have not spotted Feminismgonebonkers goods and services.

Well in the Ideal Fennelian Utopia these things would be changed too. Noone would have to take an underpaid and undervalued cleaning job (and many women who work as cleaners hate cleaning as much as the women who employ them). But some of that major societal change is beyond me at the moment. However what happens in our home is more possible to address.

Fennel - there's no more moral superiority in doing your own housework than in building your own house or performing your own operation .

Fennel - I neither underpay nor undervalue my cleaner .

But anna in reality how many men are deliberately bad at household chores? DH is, and I let him get away with it because he limits it to cooking and organisation. And I like cooking and am a control freak. He is better than me at cleaning (because I don't like it) and probably similarly capable at laundry/ironing.

Just change the jobs - you do the kitchen and bathroom but your dp does his own washing and ironing, sorts the car out and mows the lawn etc. That way whay would you have to nagif he doesn't do his own washing and ironing? Its not going to effect you is it? Only choose jobs that directly have an impact on him - then no nagging is required.....

Anna - And I thought capitalists were cold-blooded.

Sounds generally the same problem that we have. Last night case in point. Got home from work having picked up dh then ds (2.7) at nursery at about 6pm. Got supper for ds (cooked at w/e so just warm slightly) - fed ds, got pudding and juice for ds, took upstairs, sorted potty, got bath ready, got ds in bath. At this stage ds had decided that he would like dh to give him bath and read story. Went downstairs (now 6.50pm) - dh had changed, sat reading a book for 30 mins (in loo) and was fiddling with his laptop in the kitchen when I went down to get him to take over with ds. I started getting supper ready - had a quick fiddle with dh's computer while supper starting to cook. Dh suceeded to get ds in bed, then came down and pushed me off computer and told me what else he wanted for supper. Fair division of labour? I don't think so. Any chance of getting better balance. Fat chance.

"Men are pigs and lots of the ones I know would live in a bin rather than do it themselves"

Oi!

I'm the cleaner in our relationship. DW cooks (maybe 75% of cooking) and does the laundry. That was a sweeping generalisation. Ho ho.

bozza - to be honest, whether or not a man is any good at household chores is just not an issue for me. My partner never does any household chores (though he is clean and tidy - I hate slobs). But he is fantastically good at his job, so he earns lots of money and doesn't have to work too hard to do so, so we get lots of time together and as a family. He is lots of fun and we have a laugh. And we have enough money to pay for a cleaner/ironer/window cleaner/meals out.

I honestly don't think my partner chose me because I was good at household chores. However, he needs me to be good at managing our household/family (buying in support when necessary) without his help, because he is busy enough at work not to have a lot of energy left for managing the household.

Fennel - I agree entirely with your view that each partner should do their fair share - dh and I both work full time and we share all childcare and domestic duties 50/50 - like you, I would not choose to live with somebody who did not treat me as an equal and share the same view regarding a fair split of all childcare/household tasks. I think the op needs to discuss these issues with her dh rather than nagging or giving deadlines which will make him think he is doing her a favour by undertaking the task he agreed to do in the first place ie cleaning the kitchen and bathroom.

As for the middle classes outsourcing to the working class - this isn't a class issue at all - dh and I both work in jobs that allow us to afford a cleaner - our cleaner (who is male btw) needs a job that fits in with his other commitments (he is a mature student), does not involve driving, and does not involve too much hassle/stress - what other job would he do??

My cleaner can't clean. I am so anal that I struggle to find things for her to do. But I feel sorry for her - even though I pay her more than the going rate - so could not sack her. I have stopped making her coffee and listening to her boyfriend woes though. Is this constructive dismissal?

You are not doing her any favours, Swedes.

You need to give her a proper review, with her strengths and weaknesses, with an agreement to review again in x months' time.

You have a duty as an employer to help your employees in their professional and personal development