To think it's rude to juat assume I'll supply a reference?

[Workyticket]

I'm a teacher in FE. I've been off on leave - returning next week so thought I'd log in and clear the crap put of my inbox today.

There are 5 reference requests from ex (adult) students. Only 1 has asked me first before putting my name forward.

I only teach a gcse re-sit subjects do I'm not the "go to" professional reference person

One company has emailed 3x asking for the reference despite my Out of Office stating I'm off until the 12th

When I go back I'm straight back into new student interviews, assessments and training so will struggle to find spare time.

One of the 5 I definitely won't be doing - the student was work why, demanding and always late!

OP you said in your first post that you’re going to be mad busy with interviews etc when you get back to work so it did sound like you were saying you won’t be doing the references. And the ??? person you said you’d definitely not be doing.

But if you are doing them now, hooray. And just email the students to say “please ask first next time.”

YANBU

Too many excuses made. Young adults or older, it is rude. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that someone wishing you to do something for them will ask whether you are willing to do so (preferably nicely), rather than just expecting you to do it as and when demanded.

Being young does not mean it is reasonable to expect to click your fingers and someone meets your demands. In any case, these are adults!

If someone did not ask me first, regardless of age or background, I would not be doing the reference. And if they sent me a line of ????? as a way to try and prompt me to meet their demands, then I might be tempted to do an extremely honest reference, stating exactly what I thought of them. I suspect they would not appreciate that though.

However, the responses have been illuminating. It explains a lot about how we have got to the current state of affairs where the levels of entitlement across all age groups are quite often astounding and expectations are frequently unrealistic. Basic manners is all that is required.

I mean- do you really need to be told that you should ask someone for a favour? As opposed to demanding they do something just because you’ve decided you need them to?

@PuppyMonkey

OP you said in your first post that you’re going to be mad busy with interviews etc when you get back to work so it did sound like you were saying you won’t be doing the references. And the ??? person you said you’d definitely not be doing.

But if you are doing them now, hooray. And just email the students to say “please ask first next time.”

No, I was always going to do them. As I say I've done hundreds - almost always had a heads up though which is what I'm complaining about not getting.

I'll be mad busy and it'll be hard to fit them in but of course I'll do them (except the one i mentioned)

I've got daft nails on hence the weird typos etc so really don't want to do them on my phone.

It's the one from an employer who has emailed askimg 3 times despite my Out Of Office bei.ng on. That person has a job and was doing an Access course so would definitely have others to ask.

@jacks11

YANBU

Too many excuses made. Young adults or older, it is rude. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that someone wishing you to do something for them will ask whether you are willing to do so (preferably nicely), rather than just expecting you to do it as and when demanded.

Being young does not mean it is reasonable to expect to click your fingers and someone meets your demands. In any case, these are adults!

If someone did not ask me first, regardless of age or background, I would not be doing the reference. And if they sent me a line of ????? as a way to try and prompt me to meet their demands, then I might be tempted to do an extremely honest reference, stating exactly what I thought of them. I suspect they would not appreciate that though.

However, the responses have been illuminating. It explains a lot about how we have got to the current state of affairs where the levels of entitlement across all age groups are quite often astounding and expectations are frequently unrealistic. Basic manners is all that is required.

I mean- do you really need to be told that you should ask someone for a favour? As opposed to demanding they do something just because you’ve decided you need them to?

Thank you. I really thought I was going mad.

I love my job - my students seem to like me. I have lovely relationships with the vast majority. Posters here have made me out to be worse than shit for wishing for a common courtesy :(

@jacks11

That's a scathing post. Until I had to write a reference for someone I had no idea what a task it was. It didn't really register as asking someone a favour . I suppose I kind of assumed it was my uni tutor/sixth form teachers job. On reflection this attitude is awful but no one told me otherwise. They all said "if you need a reference, put me down".

@jacks11

YANBU

Too many excuses made. Young adults or older, it is rude. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that someone wishing you to do something for them will ask whether you are willing to do so (preferably nicely), rather than just expecting you to do it as and when demanded.

Being young does not mean it is reasonable to expect to click your fingers and someone meets your demands. In any case, these are adults!

If someone did not ask me first, regardless of age or background, I would not be doing the reference. And if they sent me a line of ????? as a way to try and prompt me to meet their demands, then I might be tempted to do an extremely honest reference, stating exactly what I thought of them. I suspect they would not appreciate that though.

However, the responses have been illuminating. It explains a lot about how we have got to the current state of affairs where the levels of entitlement across all age groups are quite often astounding and expectations are frequently unrealistic. Basic manners is all that is required.

I mean- do you really need to be told that you should ask someone for a favour? As opposed to demanding they do something just because you’ve decided you need them to?

If you read the full thread; MOST people agree that it's a bit rude for these ex students to assume someone will do a reference. What is getting people backs up is that the whole demeanour and attitude of the OP just stinks! ...

it's rude not to ask - I always ask current and present employers, let alone an academic referee.
I would let the employers know when you expect to complete it by, email the students to confirm that you have done it - and that it expected practice/polite to notify the person they are asking to provide a reference in advance of the request.

and the work shy twat - either be brutally honest, or just confirm the dates he was a student.

@ThinWomansBrain

it's rude not to ask - I always ask current and present employers, let alone an academic referee. I would let the employers know when you expect to complete it by, email the students to confirm that you have done it - and that it expected practice/polite to notify the person they are asking to provide a reference in advance of the request.

and the work shy twat - either be brutally honest, or just confirm the dates he was a student.

Not allowed to be brutally honest these days unfortunately. I'll definitely reply with his attendance dates - will involve logging in though so he'll have to wait!

I've genuinely never put someone forward as a reference without asking!

I am brutally honest if I give a phone reference. I told one woman who rang up for a reference for one of our bright young things, that she was outstanding at her job, when she did it. She also brought a lot of drama and unreliability to the party, and on balance I felt I would rather have someone less good, whom we could train, but more reliable, and who didn’t have screaming hysterics if things didn’t go her way.

I also hate people not asking first. I have two friends that I haven’t really seen for about 8 years, who always put me down as a referee without asking, largely because I have an impressive job title. It’s an utter pain in the arse to do, particularly if it’s one of those pesky forms that goes through minutiae of previous jobs, their strengths and weaknesses etc.

@Workyticket I'm in HE rather than FE but I have adopted a strict "not checking emails on AL policy" (I do but they don't need to know - I am in Scotland, so "I'll be up a hill somewhere" works well!). Anyone who can reasonably ask for a reference knows they won't get a repy becaue I told them.

I do think a lot has to do with people not being taught how to ask for a reference (which is why I tell mine) but that still doesn't make it your issue. I recommend telling them, though, saves a lot of work!

You're not unreasonable. Manners cost nothing and these people are rude.

I work in a job where I get reference requests all the time. I also send them out a lot and often don't get replies back.

Here's what you can do to.

Ignore them all whilst you're on leave

Reply back asking for proof that the candidate has given them permission to contact you. This buys you more time. Why not copy the candidate so they know you haven't been asked

Write up very basic refs which you can copy and paste. Unless you want to go out of your way to help people

@Senoritarita

Thank you. I think I've wound myself up because I can't do them without the laptop as much as I'm annoyed that they've not offered the courtesy of asking.

I like 4 of them and want them to well and the teacher guilt kicked in that I've not spotted them sooner because I've been off

Yes it's (actually rather old-fashioned) good manners to ask for a reference, but it's also part of a leadership/management role and to refuse because someone hasn't contacted you first is spiteful imo.

@Twillow

Yes it's (actually rather old-fashioned) good manners to ask for a reference, but it's also part of a leadership/management role and to refuse because someone hasn't contacted you first is spiteful imo.

I'm not leadership or management

I haven't refused so not sure where the spiteful comes from?

[quote TheBestPlansAlwaysFail]@Workyticket I'm in HE rather than FE but I have adopted a strict "not checking emails on AL policy" (I do but they don't need to know - I am in Scotland, so "I'll be up a hill somewhere" works well!). Anyone who can reasonably ask for a reference knows they won't get a repy becaue I told them.

I do think a lot has to do with people not being taught how to ask for a reference (which is why I tell mine) but that still doesn't make it your issue. I recommend telling them, though, saves a lot of work![/quote]
Good point.

OP, did you make it clear that you expect your students to inform you first before putting you down as reference?

It’s not something that’s common knowledge in many social circles. Particularly working class youths.

Who are already disadvantaged enough without missing out on jobs because they aren’t aware of the etiquette surrounding asking for references.

Actually it would be interesting to know how many people contact say the op (female I assume) and how many would contact a male teacher.

I assume each student had multiple teachers they can pick on? So there may be a default assumption that women will be nude and do it, over men who may refuse if not asked properly:correct channels.

That's why I think it should all be funnelled through one central place, who picks up that x is on holiday /sabbatical/ not the right person for that student.

I've never mentioned references. I see each group of 25 ish adults (not youths) for 3 hours a week.

Most of them work or study an Access Course (so way more than 3 hours) so I'd assume they'd go to them first

As I said - I'm not the go to person for references. I comment on attendance, work ethic and commitment, team work etc

But I really can't commit to saying "Joe will be an excellent addition to your accountancy firm" or whatever based on seeing them in a large group setting for 3 hours per week!

If they aren’t told, how do you expect them to know?

I wasn’t aware of this etiquette until I was in university and told by my lecturer.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

If they aren’t told, how do you expect them to know?

I wasn’t aware of this etiquette until I was in university and told by my lecturer.

As above. It's never come up. They're adults with jobs etc.

That doesn’t answer my question.

So there may be a default assumption that women will be nude and do it

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

That doesn’t answer my question.

Because they're after a favour from someone they've seen for 3 hours a week for a few months. I'm not a long standing employer or someone they've known for years

And they're adults. And it's the holidays

Your students are either rude or clueless.

This has been a good reminder to make sure that I teach my DDs basic professional manners!

@teezletangler

Your students are either rude or clueless.

This has been a good reminder to make sure that I teach my DDs basic professional manners!

Thank you. This threas has been a real eye opener for me.