'Life empty without children'

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I am married and really want a family. Two of my close are single - I think one would like children if she met the right person and one is very vocal about not wanting them and they ruin lives / relationships etc.

We are TTC and have had some set backs this year, which they know about.

Over the weekend we were talking and they said that even if it doesn't happen for us, I will still have a great life with my husband, having nice holidays and more money etc and it's nothing to be sad about. But actually, I would be very sad if it doesn't work out, I yearn to have a family. I said that of course I love my husband but we both really want to be parents and to me (not everyone) my life would feel a bit pointless without children.

It's caused huge offence and taken that I think their life is pointless. I dont think that, but yes for me, holidays and cars are not going to fill the strong urge I have to be a mother.

Who is BU?

[Bizawit]

@penguinwithasuitcase

Erm no not at all. Totally fine to say it’s something she really wants for her life. But to say her life would be pointless without children- the inference is rude. No need to say that at all to single, childless friends; especially since one might not be childless entirely by choice. But either way it’s insensitive. Each to their own of course. People are free to be unkind and rude to others, but they shouldn’t be surprised when offence is taken!

There is no inference at all, except what you're choosing to infer.

My friend is an incredible pianist and fully feels that's what she's made to do –she'd quite confidently say her life would feel pointless without being able to play.

And I can quite happily hear that without thinking she's saying MY life is pointless because I can just about manage Chopsticks on the piano, nor do I have any inclination to learn more.

And yes, before the outrage brigade jumps on the analogy, I am fully aware that a baby is not a piano.

I’m not “choosing” to infer anything. In my opinion saying “my life would feel pointless without children” is an insensitive thing to say to a single / childless friend. I felt the same way before I had my baby , but I wouldn’t put it like that to others who don’t have children , as I’d worry it would come across as rude/ hurt their feelings.. on the other hand I do agree that it was the OP’s grief talking and she’s been through a lot so deserves some grace.

I don’t think your analogy about your friend and her piano is comparable for a number of reasons. But what if your friend said “I think my life would be so pointless if I didn’t have a talent like playing the piano” ? Some people who lack a comparable talent might find that arrogant and rude for example..

[penguinwithasuitcase]

But what if your friend said “I think my life would be so pointless if I didn’t have a talent like playing the piano” ? Some people who lack a comparable talent might find that arrogant and rude for example

And others would understand that she's talking about herself, not them, and be able to have a sensitive and understanding discussion about different experiences of life.

I know which I'd prefer to be friends with.

[Mazblue86]

Agreed, I don't think they're very good friends if they're going to be so easily offended. With my close friends we can talk about anything. It's complicated and hard all the marriage and babies stuff but we're all entitled to our views and feelings. One of my best friends is coming to terms with the fact that she can't have children and I am excited to be pregnant. It's hard for her that I got pregnant easily, but she also knows I lost one. She's happy for me and a little jealous (her words not mine!) and also says that she's happy to live a child free life getting richer (her words!!) while I get poorer. We just talk about the mixtures of emotions.

[PurpleDaisies]

She's happy for me and a little jealous (her words not mine!) and also says that she's happy to live a child free life getting richer (her words!!) while I get poorer.

I can almost guarantee that she doesn’t actually mean that and she’s putting a brave face on it for the benefit of your friendship.

[notanothertakeaway]

I think YABU to suggest to anyone that their life is pointless and expect them not to be offended

[Mazblue86]

@PurpleDaisies I know that. But she's also faking it until she makes it. It's the decision she's made at the moment and it would be a bit patronising for me to say 'I don't think you mean that...' But she knows I know she's putting a brave face on it. The point is, she's not offended by my desire to have children.

[notanothertakeaway]

@Mazblue86

Agreed, I don't think they're very good friends if they're going to be so easily offended. With my close friends we can talk about anything. It's complicated and hard all the marriage and babies stuff but we're all entitled to our views and feelings. One of my best friends is coming to terms with the fact that she can't have children and I am excited to be pregnant. It's hard for her that I got pregnant easily, but she also knows I lost one. She's happy for me and a little jealous (her words not mine!) and also says that she's happy to live a child free life getting richer (her words!!) while I get poorer. We just talk about the mixtures of emotions.

I think your friend is putting on a brave face and very supportive. Please be tactful and sensitive

[Mazblue86]

@notanothertakeaway Please believe me, I know that. We've talked about all the different feelings you can possibly imagine.I know that she is devastated but I also knows she means it when she says she's got a positive way through.

My point is that good friends can talk about difficult things and mature people can hold two feelings in their heads and separate their feelings from someone else's.

[Bizawit]

[quote Mazblue86]@PurpleDaisies I know that. But she's also faking it until she makes it. It's the decision she's made at the moment and it would be a bit patronising for me to say 'I don't think you mean that...' But she knows I know she's putting a brave face on it. The point is, she's not offended by my desire to have children. [/quote]
Of course she’s not offended by your desire to have children , but I’m pretty sure if you said to her “I think my
life would be pointless if I didnt have children”, she’d be extremely offended and upset.

Agree with others that your friend is putting on a brave face, and you should tread lightly in the circumstances.

[Mazblue86]

@Bizawit Again, I know that. The first thing I said when I told her was 'sorry, I know it's unfair...' Which it is. She's a bit sad, but also happy for me. I'm sad for her but not patronising enough to think she can't cope with my pregnancy. But (again) the point is that good relationships aren't so sensitive.

I certainly don't think my life is pointless without children and so wouldn't say so, but I still don't think an individual's feelings infer anything else about someone else's life.

[PurpleDaisies]

But (again) the point is that good relationships aren't so sensitive.

Whether you can cope with your friend’s pregnancy doesn’t depend on how good your relationship is. It’s how well you can cope with women being pregnant around you at that time. It’s not patronising to be sensitive to people really struggling.

[LolaSmiles]

I think YABU to suggest to anyone that their life is pointless and expect them not to be offended
It's a good job OP didn't say anything about anyone else's life being pointless then.

Mazblue86
Having had fertility difficulties I understand where you're coming from. I was happy for my friends when they were expecting and they were supportive of me through a difficult time. Since I've had DC, other friends have had miscarriages and fertility struggles. We've all talked about it. At times everyone will have experienced the ups and downs.
None of us went looking for offence because we were friends, and none of us would be getting moody because we didn't like the words our friends used to describe their feelings about their life experiences.

[Marmitemarinaded]

@LolaSmiles

You seem to think everyone is exactly the same and thinks and feels exactly the same.

We are all different. What May bother one May not bother another.

And when you are talking about something like…. Reproducing…. It’s probably best to err on the side of caution.

But you seem to think… well I. I wouldn’t be offended therefore totally daft that anyone would be offended

[CounsellorTroi]

Having had fertility difficulties I understand where you're coming from. I was happy for my friends when they were expecting and they were supportive of me through a difficult time. Since I've had DC, other friends have had miscarriages and fertility struggles. We've all talked about it. At times everyone will have experienced the ups and downs.

If you mean by the ups getting pregnant and having DC,, no not everyone will have experienced that.

[lifehappened]

It's sounds like you've had a loss by (setbacks) if so your mate needs to cut you some slack

[ZenNudist]

Life without children is not pointless and unfulfilling. Your life too. It's like being determined to be unhappy. Yes if it doesn't happen be sad but also find ways to make your life fulfilled. It doesn't have to be holidays and cars. It could be charity work. It could be fostering. You could adopt. It could be creating a business you love. It could be having a peaceful and loving relationship with your dh. It could be walking in beautiful scenery. It could be close friendships. It could be a mix of things.

Don't be a misery. Apologise to your friends.

Having children is a mixed bag. Yes it's great but it's not guaranteed that they will be there for you after you've given 18 of your best years to them. Family life is all consuming tiring and expensive. People who have children still need to make their lives fulfilled even after they finish.

[MarshaBradyo]

Yes life can be fulfilling but

Don't be a misery.

Is insensitive to someone who has had a mc at 12 weeks.

The op doesn’t know what’s next and will likely be very sad about above.

[PurpleDaisies]

Having children is a mixed bag.

Don’t be so bloody patronising. We know this. It doesn’t make any difference to whether you want kids or not. It isn’t a comfort when you can’t have them.

Don't be a misery.

Don’t be so insensitive. Did you totally miss the op has had a miscarriage.

[LawnFever]

@CounsellorTroi

Having had fertility difficulties I understand where you're coming from. I was happy for my friends when they were expecting and they were supportive of me through a difficult time. Since I've had DC, other friends have had miscarriages and fertility struggles. We've all talked about it. At times everyone will have experienced the ups and downs.

If you mean by the ups getting pregnant and having DC,, no not everyone will have experienced that.

I agree if that’s what the ups are that are being referred to.

It’s quite tiresome that everyone who’s since had DC after struggling to conceive happily forgets that some people never will.

So much talk about infertility is actually about people who have since had DC, I’m not dismissing that many people struggle but there’s a huge void of understanding once people do that for some people it’s not a case of when it will happen eventually, but a coming to accept it never will happen.

[LolaSmiles]

LawnFever
I haven't happily forgotten that some people never will.I'd mentioned the coming to accept it with the OP earlier in the thread, should she be in that position. But right now OP's feelings are grounded I'm her desire for children and her friend is wrong to me-rail the OP's feelings about the OP's life.

Ultimately if someone is talking about their life, and their desire for children, and their hopes, and their aspirations, and their feelings about their experiences then only someone who is quite self-obsessed would say "you said X about your life but I'm offended because I've decided you must have been talking about my life".

[LolaSmiles]

If you mean by the ups getting pregnant and having DC,, no not everyone will have experienced that
I didn't mean the ups of getting pregnant. I meant everyone has ups and downs.

Unless my friendship group is unusual, everyone in it has highs and lows, good times and bad times. Thankfully because we are friends we are capable of talking about how we feel about our ups and downs without our friends getting moody that we didn't adequately centre them in the language we use to talk about our experiences.

Sometimes I think MN is another world. Like when posters pile on to tell someone explaining their troubled relationship with their mum to suck it up because they've lost their mum and would do anything to have her back. Some people can't help but try to twist someone sharing their feelings into something dramatic that's centring themselves.

[Bizawit]

@LolaSmiles

LawnFever
I haven't happily forgotten that some people never will.I'd mentioned the coming to accept it with the OP earlier in the thread, should she be in that position. But right now OP's feelings are grounded I'm her desire for children and her friend is wrong to me-rail the OP's feelings about the OP's life.

Ultimately if someone is talking about their life, and their desire for children, and their hopes, and their aspirations, and their feelings about their experiences then only someone who is quite self-obsessed would say "you said X about your life but I'm offended because I've decided you must have been talking about my life".

Honestly @LolaSmiles I think it is your perspective that is self obsessed. Whether you like it or not, the words we use and the things we say and have the potential to hurt other people’s feelings. You can either be sensitive to those things, and think about the way your words might be received by others, or not. Personally, not being self centred, I chose to think about how my words affect others. That would include being sensitive to the fact that, whilst I have children, I have friends who don’t for a range of reasons, and they might experience a range of different emotions in relation to that. I avoid saying things that imply my life might be better/ superior/ more meaningful to theirs because I have a baby, in case that might (very understandably) cause hurt/ offence.

At the same time, if I had a friend who had a miscarriage; I would avoid saying anything that might be seen to diminish the pain of that. Having had a miscarriage myself, I know that people try to say things that they intend to be helpful, but are actually really, really hurtful to hear.
In

In this case it does sound like there was insensitivity on both sides. However, OP has just been through something awful, so it’s understandable that she might say something less than thoughtful. Especially given the clumsy way her friends were also dealing with her grief.

[Marmitemarinaded]

@LolaSmiles

You have a determination to think that everyone should be like you and your friends - and thick skinned and no offence taken in any situation .

And in reality - people are different. I am thick skinned. However I recognise others aren’t and I adapt to that.

Essentially - I don’t want to hurt people and make them feel a bit sad - even if I wouldn’t of the tables were turned.

[LolaSmiles]

Honestly@LolaSmilesI think it is your perspective that is self obsessed

There's some mental gymnastics going on there.

Thinking my friends should be able to discuss THEIR feelings and THEIR aspirations and THEIR perspectives on THEIR life without me, or anyone else looking for offence because taking it as a personal dig is apparently self obsessed. I've heard it all now.

Meanwhile the following are not self obsessed:

Person A: Here's my feelings about something in my life
Person B: How offensive. Don't say that about your life because obviously that was a dig about me and my life.

Person A: This is how I'm feeling about a situation in my life
Person B: How rude. Don't you know you should choose different words to explain your feelings about your life. I think you should use the words X, Y, Z so that your feelings about your life experience are expressed in words I consider to be acceptable for your situation.

[LolaSmiles]

You have a determination to think that everyone should be like you and your friends - and thick skinned and no offence taken in any situation

It's not about being thick skinned. It's about appreciating that other people talking about their feelings and their life is a comment on how they feel about their life and nothing more.

The OP has expressed HER feelings about a situation in HER life, and has talked about HER perspective.
Her friends have decided that the OP talking about HER experience and feelings was somehow a comment on THEIR life.

Then the poor OP has more people piling in telling her she was out of order because she shouldn't say other people's lives are pointless, and she should use alternative words to talk about her life.

Even if the OP used the alternative words on here, a self-centred friend would turn round and say "so you're saying my life is unfulfilling, how rude"