'Life empty without children'

[ncncncncncncncnc12]

I am married and really want a family. Two of my close are single - I think one would like children if she met the right person and one is very vocal about not wanting them and they ruin lives / relationships etc.

We are TTC and have had some set backs this year, which they know about.

Over the weekend we were talking and they said that even if it doesn't happen for us, I will still have a great life with my husband, having nice holidays and more money etc and it's nothing to be sad about. But actually, I would be very sad if it doesn't work out, I yearn to have a family. I said that of course I love my husband but we both really want to be parents and to me (not everyone) my life would feel a bit pointless without children.

It's caused huge offence and taken that I think their life is pointless. I dont think that, but yes for me, holidays and cars are not going to fill the strong urge I have to be a mother.

Who is BU?

[Soso7]

Life is bloody hard with children that’s for sure. I’m not sure I’d have them again now I what is involved.

[LolaSmiles]

I'd never knock on my best friends door and say "by the way, friend, you are pointless because you don't have kids"
However, if I was talking about my fertility problems and recent miscarriage, and my struggles with my hurt around that, I'd expect her to realise that at that point in time, it wasn't about her and her decision to remain child free
100% this.
If you can't talk about your feelings about a situation in your life without friends turning it round on how you're apparently having a go at their life then they're not very good friends.

I couldn't imagine a friend opening up about how they're feeling about a life event and then telling them they need to centre me and use the words I think apply to their emotions.

As I explained clearly, it is self obsessed to think that you can just say whatever you want to other people without considering how it might sound to others/ how it could potentially hurt their feelings
It's not self obsessed to think that people should be able to talk about THEIR feelings about THEIR life situations without so-called friends deciding that any comment about one person's life must be a dig.

Had the OP said "lives without children are pointless" then I would 100% agree with people saying she was unreasonable. It's totally unacceptable to do that and comment on other people's lives like that. If she's talking about her feelings about her own life then her friends need to accept that OP talking about her life is not a comment about friend's life.

[Youseethethingis]

I'd never knock on my best friends door and say "by the way, friend, you are pointless because you don't have kids"
However, if I was talking about my fertility problems and recent miscarriage, and my struggles with my hurt around that, I'd expect her to realise that at that point in time, it wasn't about her and her decision to remain child free.
She got married recently and was under such pressure to change her name particularly from her MIL. She defended her position as "my name is my name, I've had it all my life, I'm my own person and I don't need or want a new name, bloody patriarchy, woman's rights blah blah blah". To me. A woman who chose to change her name.
I didn't fall out with her, she was talking about her name and marriage and choice, not mine. Why shouldn't she have been honest and vented to her friend since we were in nappies?
What kind of friend would I be if I told her I didn't want to hear about her feelings because I thought they were about me?

[Bizawit]

@Youseethethingis

"other people" this and "other people" that.
These are supposed to be OPs friends, not random "other people"!
If you can't be honest when talking with your friends about something so important in your life, which is causing you immense pain, without them going off on one thinking you are actually talking about them it's the bloody friendship that's pointless!

But shouldn’t you also be considerate of your friends feelings?!

I don’t think it’s a binary choice between being honest/ being offensive. There are ways to honestly express ones feelings, but in a way that takes into account the situations of others and how certain things may come across/ be hurtful to them. Personally, the friends I appreciate the most in my life are both honest and sensitive .

[lljkk]

I'm struggling with that word "empty".
OP put empty in the thread title. Not used it again. What exactly did OP say to her friends that made them think she thought their choices were bad ones?

[Bizawit]

@CounsellorTroi

Leaving aside the OP has had a miscarriage and what her friend sai was insensitive in that context. I'm married and have been for 30 years. My best friend is single. I know she would like to have met someone and had children. She does make the most of her life. I would however never dream of saying to her that I feel my life would be pointless if I'd never married. For one thing, I don't know how my life would have been. For another it would just be tactless and insensitive. Just because someone is your friend doesn't mean you doesn't give you carte blanche to disregard their feelings.

Exactly

[CounsellorTroi]

Leaving aside the OP has had a miscarriage and what her friend sai was insensitive in that context. I'm married and have been for 30 years. My best friend is single. I know she would like to have met someone and had children. She does make the most of her life. I would however never dream of saying to her that I feel my life would be pointless if I'd never married. For one thing, I don't know how my life would have been. For another it would just be tactless and insensitive. Just because someone is your friend doesn't mean you doesn't give you carte blanche to disregard their feelings.

[Youseethethingis]

"other people" this and "other people" that.
These are supposed to be OPs friends, not random "other people"!
If you can't be honest when talking with your friends about something so important in your life, which is causing you immense pain, without them going off on one thinking you are actually talking about them it's the bloody friendship that's pointless!

[Bizawit]

Also @LolaSmiles you are often on these threads defending other peoples right to behave exactly as they please with no regard to the perspectives / feelings / needs / experiences of others. And, yeh, I consider that a self absorbed way to move through life.

[Bizawit]

[quote LolaSmiles]Honestly@LolaSmilesI think it is your perspective that is self obsessed

There's some mental gymnastics going on there.

Thinking my friends should be able to discuss THEIR feelings and THEIR aspirations and THEIR perspectives on THEIR life without me, or anyone else looking for offence because taking it as a personal dig is apparently self obsessed. I've heard it all now.

Meanwhile the following are not self obsessed:

Person A: Here's my feelings about something in my life
Person B: How offensive. Don't say that about your life because obviously that was a dig about me and my life.

Person A: This is how I'm feeling about a situation in my life
Person B: How rude. Don't you know you should choose different words to explain your feelings about your life. I think you should use the words X, Y, Z so that your feelings about your life experience are expressed in words I consider to be acceptable for your situation.[/quote]
As I explained clearly, it is self obsessed to think that you can just say whatever you want to other people without considering how it might sound to others/ how it could potentially hurt their feelings.

I get your point: the OP was making a comment about how she felt about her own life, and other people didn’t need to take it personally. But they did, and I understand why.

Your perspective if really blunt and lacking any subtlety. The OP has already acknowledged herself that if she made the same comment to someone who was having fertility issues, it would be cruel. She would still be making a comment about her own life, but surely you can see how such a comment might hurt an infertile friend for instance? So the fact that she was making a comment about her own life isn’t the only factor at play/ doesn’t negate the potential to cause offence to others.

[LolaSmiles]

You have a determination to think that everyone should be like you and your friends - and thick skinned and no offence taken in any situation

It's not about being thick skinned. It's about appreciating that other people talking about their feelings and their life is a comment on how they feel about their life and nothing more.

The OP has expressed HER feelings about a situation in HER life, and has talked about HER perspective.
Her friends have decided that the OP talking about HER experience and feelings was somehow a comment on THEIR life.

Then the poor OP has more people piling in telling her she was out of order because she shouldn't say other people's lives are pointless, and she should use alternative words to talk about her life.

Even if the OP used the alternative words on here, a self-centred friend would turn round and say "so you're saying my life is unfulfilling, how rude"

[LolaSmiles]

Honestly@LolaSmilesI think it is your perspective that is self obsessed

There's some mental gymnastics going on there.

Thinking my friends should be able to discuss THEIR feelings and THEIR aspirations and THEIR perspectives on THEIR life without me, or anyone else looking for offence because taking it as a personal dig is apparently self obsessed. I've heard it all now.

Meanwhile the following are not self obsessed:

Person A: Here's my feelings about something in my life
Person B: How offensive. Don't say that about your life because obviously that was a dig about me and my life.

Person A: This is how I'm feeling about a situation in my life
Person B: How rude. Don't you know you should choose different words to explain your feelings about your life. I think you should use the words X, Y, Z so that your feelings about your life experience are expressed in words I consider to be acceptable for your situation.

[Marmitemarinaded]

@LolaSmiles

You have a determination to think that everyone should be like you and your friends - and thick skinned and no offence taken in any situation .

And in reality - people are different. I am thick skinned. However I recognise others aren’t and I adapt to that.

Essentially - I don’t want to hurt people and make them feel a bit sad - even if I wouldn’t of the tables were turned.

[Bizawit]

@LolaSmiles

LawnFever
I haven't happily forgotten that some people never will.I'd mentioned the coming to accept it with the OP earlier in the thread, should she be in that position. But right now OP's feelings are grounded I'm her desire for children and her friend is wrong to me-rail the OP's feelings about the OP's life.

Ultimately if someone is talking about their life, and their desire for children, and their hopes, and their aspirations, and their feelings about their experiences then only someone who is quite self-obsessed would say "you said X about your life but I'm offended because I've decided you must have been talking about my life".

Honestly @LolaSmiles I think it is your perspective that is self obsessed. Whether you like it or not, the words we use and the things we say and have the potential to hurt other people’s feelings. You can either be sensitive to those things, and think about the way your words might be received by others, or not. Personally, not being self centred, I chose to think about how my words affect others. That would include being sensitive to the fact that, whilst I have children, I have friends who don’t for a range of reasons, and they might experience a range of different emotions in relation to that. I avoid saying things that imply my life might be better/ superior/ more meaningful to theirs because I have a baby, in case that might (very understandably) cause hurt/ offence.

At the same time, if I had a friend who had a miscarriage; I would avoid saying anything that might be seen to diminish the pain of that. Having had a miscarriage myself, I know that people try to say things that they intend to be helpful, but are actually really, really hurtful to hear.
In

In this case it does sound like there was insensitivity on both sides. However, OP has just been through something awful, so it’s understandable that she might say something less than thoughtful. Especially given the clumsy way her friends were also dealing with her grief.

[LolaSmiles]

If you mean by the ups getting pregnant and having DC,, no not everyone will have experienced that
I didn't mean the ups of getting pregnant. I meant everyone has ups and downs.

Unless my friendship group is unusual, everyone in it has highs and lows, good times and bad times. Thankfully because we are friends we are capable of talking about how we feel about our ups and downs without our friends getting moody that we didn't adequately centre them in the language we use to talk about our experiences.

Sometimes I think MN is another world. Like when posters pile on to tell someone explaining their troubled relationship with their mum to suck it up because they've lost their mum and would do anything to have her back. Some people can't help but try to twist someone sharing their feelings into something dramatic that's centring themselves.

[LolaSmiles]

LawnFever
I haven't happily forgotten that some people never will.I'd mentioned the coming to accept it with the OP earlier in the thread, should she be in that position. But right now OP's feelings are grounded I'm her desire for children and her friend is wrong to me-rail the OP's feelings about the OP's life.

Ultimately if someone is talking about their life, and their desire for children, and their hopes, and their aspirations, and their feelings about their experiences then only someone who is quite self-obsessed would say "you said X about your life but I'm offended because I've decided you must have been talking about my life".

[LawnFever]

@CounsellorTroi

Having had fertility difficulties I understand where you're coming from. I was happy for my friends when they were expecting and they were supportive of me through a difficult time. Since I've had DC, other friends have had miscarriages and fertility struggles. We've all talked about it. At times everyone will have experienced the ups and downs.

If you mean by the ups getting pregnant and having DC,, no not everyone will have experienced that.

I agree if that’s what the ups are that are being referred to.

It’s quite tiresome that everyone who’s since had DC after struggling to conceive happily forgets that some people never will.

So much talk about infertility is actually about people who have since had DC, I’m not dismissing that many people struggle but there’s a huge void of understanding once people do that for some people it’s not a case of when it will happen eventually, but a coming to accept it never will happen.

[PurpleDaisies]

Having children is a mixed bag.

Don’t be so bloody patronising. We know this. It doesn’t make any difference to whether you want kids or not. It isn’t a comfort when you can’t have them.

Don't be a misery.

Don’t be so insensitive. Did you totally miss the op has had a miscarriage.

[MarshaBradyo]

Yes life can be fulfilling but

Don't be a misery.

Is insensitive to someone who has had a mc at 12 weeks.

The op doesn’t know what’s next and will likely be very sad about above.

[ZenNudist]

Life without children is not pointless and unfulfilling. Your life too. It's like being determined to be unhappy. Yes if it doesn't happen be sad but also find ways to make your life fulfilled. It doesn't have to be holidays and cars. It could be charity work. It could be fostering. You could adopt. It could be creating a business you love. It could be having a peaceful and loving relationship with your dh. It could be walking in beautiful scenery. It could be close friendships. It could be a mix of things.

Don't be a misery. Apologise to your friends.

Having children is a mixed bag. Yes it's great but it's not guaranteed that they will be there for you after you've given 18 of your best years to them. Family life is all consuming tiring and expensive. People who have children still need to make their lives fulfilled even after they finish.

[lifehappened]

It's sounds like you've had a loss by (setbacks) if so your mate needs to cut you some slack

[CounsellorTroi]

Having had fertility difficulties I understand where you're coming from. I was happy for my friends when they were expecting and they were supportive of me through a difficult time. Since I've had DC, other friends have had miscarriages and fertility struggles. We've all talked about it. At times everyone will have experienced the ups and downs.

If you mean by the ups getting pregnant and having DC,, no not everyone will have experienced that.

[Marmitemarinaded]

@LolaSmiles

You seem to think everyone is exactly the same and thinks and feels exactly the same.

We are all different. What May bother one May not bother another.

And when you are talking about something like…. Reproducing…. It’s probably best to err on the side of caution.

But you seem to think… well I. I wouldn’t be offended therefore totally daft that anyone would be offended

[LolaSmiles]

I think YABU to suggest to anyone that their life is pointless and expect them not to be offended
It's a good job OP didn't say anything about anyone else's life being pointless then.

Mazblue86
Having had fertility difficulties I understand where you're coming from. I was happy for my friends when they were expecting and they were supportive of me through a difficult time. Since I've had DC, other friends have had miscarriages and fertility struggles. We've all talked about it. At times everyone will have experienced the ups and downs.
None of us went looking for offence because we were friends, and none of us would be getting moody because we didn't like the words our friends used to describe their feelings about their life experiences.

[PurpleDaisies]

But (again) the point is that good relationships aren't so sensitive.

Whether you can cope with your friend’s pregnancy doesn’t depend on how good your relationship is. It’s how well you can cope with women being pregnant around you at that time. It’s not patronising to be sensitive to people really struggling.