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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be surprised that Laurel Hubbard didn't register a lift in the Olympics?

529 replies

Gladiolixoxo · 02/08/2021 14:21

I wonder if all the controversy around Laurel's participation led to her losing her nerve?

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/08/2021 07:19

Top class sport is immensely lucrative. the current rules say that someone has only to live as their preferred gender (however one does thaT given as we’re repeatedly told that you don’t need to present in a feminine way to be a TW!) for four years and in the case of TW lower their testosterone level to the required level which is still significantly higher than that allowed by women

right now, sports bodies and coaches in countries like China or Russia will be looking at the male teenagers they work with and ear marking those they will be talking too about presenting as a TW. Remember they don’t have to alter their appearance much or at all and lower their testosterone for a few years so they can compete. That would be all it would take. No woman is going to beat a fit young male who has been through puberty even with lowered testosterone. Ff to the 2024 & 2028 Olympics and those “TW” would sweep the board.

If you think that’s far fetched, consider the mass doping programmes of the soviet bloc. There’s no reason why some countries wouldn’t March straight through those loopholes

FluffyBattleKitten · 03/08/2021 07:22

Some physical facts

The IOC decided in 2015 that, for their purpose, a female is anyone who says they are, as long as their testosterone, the primary male hormone, has been below 10 nanomoles per litre (nmol/L) for the past 12 months. The typical testosterone level in females is less than 1 nmol/L.

Testosterone levels at the IOC therefore do not create parity between transwomen and women. Transwomen retain a physical edge.

DrSbaitso · 03/08/2021 07:26

As Janice Turner pointed out, the worthless testosterone requirement wasn't introduced because it was fair, but because it was achievable.

FluffyBattleKitten · 03/08/2021 07:37

Lung and heart size, hip placement are all factors unaffected by gender identity but affected by sex, with men having the advantage in sports.

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 03/08/2021 07:41

Felt really sad for her. But just her being at the Olympics will have given confidence to and inspired hundreds talented trans women that they can aim to participate in the Olympics in Paris 2024 ❤️

Yes. In the men's category.

Upamountain43 · 03/08/2021 07:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

FluffyBattleKitten · 03/08/2021 07:54

^ I mean by that logic how do we know paralympic athletes are not failed athletes who have had a leg chopped off just to be able to get a medal?^

Ridiculous. Offensive. Mornonic.
The Paralympics are heavily monitored and taken part by people who have overcome adversity to excel in their field. Cerebral palsy. Losing limbs etc.
No one is going to chop a leg off to get a medal. It's a symbol of overcoming obstacles. It's powerful and awe inspiring.

And since trans women need to chop off exactly zero to steal women's places it's a false parity.

And women have already missed out. Whether one or a hundred it's too many.

DrSbaitso · 03/08/2021 07:56

Yes there will be odd women who miss out on a place or a medal and this will feel unfair to them but for every athletes who makes it to the Olympics there are 10 who just missed out for all sorts of reasons

Oh yes. First the threat doesn't exist, then it isn't significant, then it doesn't matter. When it faces women, of course.

The other reasons for missing a medal are fair ones that could affect anyone, and are an equal risk for them all. Being put up against a man is unfair and entirely avoidable, which is why we have the segregation in the first place, or are supposed to.

It is not acceptable for any woman to miss her medal because a male person took it after his self-reported feeling like a woman was considered by the hordes to trump another athlete actually being a woman. Any instance of this is a serious threat to women's sports with damage already done as it centres men and their feelings over women and athletic integrity.

BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand · 03/08/2021 08:05

Idon’t believe for one second you’d watch gymnastics knowing that the best has passed. I read a brilliant article on Twitter about how incredible Simone Biles is because the speed of her repetitions means she can (and I’m sure you’ll excuse my lack of technical knowledge) backflip more times than anyone else in the same time frame. Amazing. But finite.

You have totally missed the point of sport, and gymnastics in particular.

Watch Nadia Comaneci's performance from 1976. It's very different to modern gymnastics - the floor is hard, not springy, and the uneven bars are a different design etc. Because of that, some of the modern moves you see now simply weren't possible back then, plus advancements in training etc.

But watch it, and try to say there is no value in watching sport unless you're witnessing the very best extreme of human endurance in history.

Although you might still say that, but as I say, you've missed the point utterly.

As for the idea by categorizing by height/weight/speed instead of sex.... fucking hell. I'm within a few kg of being the same weight as my DH and we're both very fit and sporty. He is massively stronger and faster because, you know, he's a man.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/08/2021 08:06

“Transitioning to female” requires merely that they lower their testosterone for a few years. That’s it! They’re not required to have any surgery to remove or add anything, or to Womble around the Olympic village in a dress & stilettos. So very little is required it really is

And honestly given the amount of stuff around this that has been handwaved away with cries of “but that will never happen/it never happens” (TW in women’s prisons, TW taking women’s officer positions, having to fight tooth & nail to have the word mother retained in maternity legislation, prizes for women being open to “those who identify as women”, crimes being recorded by the self ID of the perpetrator rather than their sexual leading to crime statistics showing a sudden sharp increase in sexual assaults by ‘women’) I am not inclined to give them even the slightest benefit of the doubt

Charley50 · 03/08/2021 08:07

Women were not even 'allowed' (by men) to participate in many sports until relatively recently. And now some people, including the ones that run the IOC and national rugby, think it's OK for women to lose out all over again. FFS.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2021 08:35

Yes there will be odd women who miss out on a place or a medal and this will feel unfair to them but for every athletes who makes it to the Olympics there are 10 who just missed out for all sorts of reasons but I would be really surprised if this specific reason becomes a serious threat to women's sport.

Some tired old trope rolled out here.

Some women will lose anyway.

But there is only a few so what does it matter.

‘No one is going to chop a leg off/simply declare themselves a women and lower testosterone for a short period of time to do this.’ (You do know being trans requires no extreme behaviour at all. It is not like chopping a leg off in any way and to use that example shows you have a phobic view of what being trans is).

Besides which, there are already transwomen dominating sports away from Olympic level. You completely miss the point that it only takes one male to dominate a sport. It only takes one male to set a record that may never beaten by a female. Like Maxine the woman of the year for Kent at county level. Setting records playing women’s cricket, with lighter and slower balls and bats and shorter boundaries all while still playing in the men’s team at the same time. Nothing to see here.

I am sure that when the now exGB junior male champion cyclist will have no impact at ALL on female cycling when they re enter GB cycling as a female after their time on testosterone has accrued. After all, they narrowly missed out on remaining on the GB male cycling team for this Olympics. There will be nothing to see here.

Caroline Layt won sportsperson of the year for New South Wales Rugby before acknowledging that they were a male. So nothing to see here.

Rachel MCKinnon (MNHQ I use that name because that was the name they won their races in) won in cycling at masters level. So nothing to see here.

The young male runners who have set the girl’s records in Connecticut (and did not have to lower testosterone at all due to age) and won the scholarships meant for progressing girls in education to overcome sexist discrimination experienced by females for millennia. So… nothing to see here.

The Canadian archer started shooting four years ago, is in their forties and started winning while representing Canada within two years. Was the only archer sent by Canada as a female archer. So… nothing to see here.

I can list more but I have illustrated my point. To you the women missing out are acceptable collateral damage for inclusion.

Males can still compete with males!!! Females cannot fairly compete in the male sports category, and it is at times unsafe.

It only take ONE male on a team, at regional level, at country level to dominate that sport at that level.

Good that you feel girl’s and women’s economic and educational futures are expendable in this way though.

plodalong12 · 03/08/2021 08:35

@FluffyBattleKitten

^ I mean by that logic how do we know paralympic athletes are not failed athletes who have had a leg chopped off just to be able to get a medal?^

Ridiculous. Offensive. Mornonic.
The Paralympics are heavily monitored and taken part by people who have overcome adversity to excel in their field. Cerebral palsy. Losing limbs etc.
No one is going to chop a leg off to get a medal. It's a symbol of overcoming obstacles. It's powerful and awe inspiring.

And since trans women need to chop off exactly zero to steal women's places it's a false parity.

And women have already missed out. Whether one or a hundred it's too many.

How about those that just feel disabled then?
Grapewrath · 03/08/2021 08:45

Laurel is an attention seeking, headline hungry out of shape old man. That’s the bottom line.

OneTC · 03/08/2021 08:52

Pumper you could analyze this and average that and allow for this and allow for that and then ultimately you'd have all the women on one side and all the men on the other and then...

Waspsarearseholes · 03/08/2021 09:00

It is a sickening vanity project for an old, out of shape, white millionaire man who hasn't even attempted to keep on top form to take a place at the Olympics to the cost of poorer, indigenous women who have trained, despite not having the advantages of other athletes, to be their very best. To then perform so poorly just reiterates the fact that Hubbard had absolutely no business being there. None at all. I would love the defenders of Hubbard to present me with a solid argument as to why they deserved to be there.
Hubbard thinks they feel like a woman. It's baffling as they have never been, nor can ever be, a woman. What they mean is that they don't feel typically male. Growing ones hair and telling people they now want to be called Laurel does not make a man a woman. It does not make them smaller and less strong. It does not change their bodies at all. To only enter the Olympics after 'transitioning' shows that they knew all along they could never get anywhere again other men. Because they are just not good enough. Good enough, apparently though, to compete against women half their age and at the peak of their physical fitness. It's utterly gross.

RedDogsBeg · 03/08/2021 09:05

It was totally Laurel's choice to take the place of the young indigenous woman who should have been there.

A mediocre, white, male in his 40's from a privileged and wealthy background takes the place of a young, indigenous woman from a unprivileged and poor background and is feted and championed for doing so. The power of the white, privileged patriarchy in all its glory, pretty clear which lives really matter, so progressive, so inclusive, so fair.

Strange how all the TW who are taking things from women are of the same demographic as Hubbard. Those who support this don't ever preach about the poor and disadvantaged and BLM, you are total and utter hypocrites.

KeflavikAirport · 03/08/2021 09:05

Good news! I am Olympic gold medallist in the 46 year old 5 ft 5 women living at my address category. And I didn't even have to get off the sofa.

FourTeaFallOut · 03/08/2021 09:09

So Inspirational KeflavikAirport. Flowers

Now we can all be brave and stunning. Hope the Olympics have enough medals.

Waspsarearseholes · 03/08/2021 09:10

@KeflavikAirport

Good news! I am Olympic gold medallist in the 46 year old 5 ft 5 women living at my address category. And I didn't even have to get off the sofa.
Oh well done you! This is exactly the diversity of talent that pumper is looking for in the Olympic games!
DrSbaitso · 03/08/2021 09:11

Why is it that we have never had any trouble differentiating the men from the women when deciding who to send to war, or who to deny a vote, education or credit card, or indeed who to put in male or female sports...

...but once male people decide they want in on female spaces, suddenly it becomes an incredibly complicated issue and in fact we should be separating the Olympics by height and oxygen intake?

Even though there have always historically been a few people who were able to pass as the opposite sex for a while, or a few people whose sex might not have been as immediately obvious as usual (still observable and determinate with the right knowledge and technology), and indeed there have always been trans people, there hasn't been any serious suggestion that they make sex non-existent or non-binary.

We still seem to know who the women are when deciding who needs to shove over and accept losing a few medals as a non-issue. God forbid a male person should have to do the same by competing fairly if they don't want to...

Waspsarearseholes · 03/08/2021 09:13

@DrSbaitso

Why is it that we have never had any trouble differentiating the men from the women when deciding who to send to war, or who to deny a vote, education or credit card, or indeed who to put in male or female sports...

...but once male people decide they want in on female spaces, suddenly it becomes an incredibly complicated issue and in fact we should be separating the Olympics by height and oxygen intake?

Even though there have always historically been a few people who were able to pass as the opposite sex for a while, or a few people whose sex might not have been as immediately obvious as usual (still observable and determinate with the right knowledge and technology), and indeed there have always been trans people, there hasn't been any serious suggestion that they make sex non-existent or non-binary.

We still seem to know who the women are when deciding who needs to shove over and accept losing a few medals as a non-issue. God forbid a male person should have to do the same by competing fairly if they don't want to...

🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2021 09:16

It's really a Scooby Doo style mystery why LH is there when any other woman wouldn't have been selected as an injured 43 year old.

It truly is! What message are we supposed to take away exactly? Trans rights mean unfit incompetent males get to go to the Olympics, previously reserved for the elite in their sport? Yay!

beastlyslumber · 03/08/2021 09:26

I lift weights for fitness and recently persuaded my 75 year old dad to start doing the same to help improve his muscle tone and bone strength and all that. He is an old man. I am fit and strong. He immediately outlifted me and had to add more weights. I'm barely capable of lifting what he works out with now.

He is also horrified about Laurel Hubbard's cheating.