To think that 'middle class' parents get away with murder

[catfunk]

I grew up in a beautiful but modest part of the north with a fair amount of poverty and unemployment. Lots of families were under social services' care (?) police called out a lot, etc.

I now live in a fairly expensive city in the south, a fairly left wing liberal place where people party, lots of mums are 'trendy' types and generational wealth is quite common.

It struck me the other day that if the parents in my home town behaved like the parents in my current home there'd be real repercussions.
Noisy house parties whilst kids are in bed upstairs, parents getting drunk and staying out all night, recreational drug taking and being too hungover to do the school run. But it's ok because they're drinking champagne and expensive gin instead of tenants, and expensive cannabis tinctures instead of smoking resin?

None of the kids seem unhappy or affected and they do have lovely family times together of course but AIBU To think this is not fair ?

Sorry just to clarify, it's obvious you don't mean all MC people are like this! My last post sounded a bit ambiguous

It couldn't possible be a professional bad at their job or with biais or a area with a particular professional culture that couldn't possible happen

Highly unlikely. Midwives have massive caseloads spanning a very large area, and they know PND and PPP etc don’t just affect women in certain areas. They’re there to check on the babies as well as help the mothers.
Why would she bother visiting you so often if she had no concerns? For fun? 🤔

If you reacted to her visits with suspicion and unconcealed annoyance it’s highly likely she thought you were struggling or hiding something.

I’m not saying you never get a bad HCP, but generally they don’t waste their time on people who don’t need them. Clearly she thought you had PND that you were suffering alone with, she wasn’t trying to ‘bug you’ or annoy you because of where you lived!

I totally agree with you OP.

I don't understand the criticism.

If the idea is that people who live in certain areas, certain types of houses, have certain jobs, have a certain level of income, etc

Are somehow BETTER PEOPLE than other parts of the population?!

Because that's a very strange thing to think.

And I would worry that those who are very protective of the natural wonderfulness of their 'group' would prefer not to notice, explain away, immediately dismiss anything they noticed that could mean things were not right at home.

My dd was friends with a girl whose parents were/still are likely to get blind drunk on a night out. I went to a house party where BOTH parents had to be taken home and put to bed by a neighbour. Quite embarrassing as everyone was well over 40 by this stage. My dd was invited round the next day and everything she and her friend ate was ordered from Deliveroo because the parents were too hungover to achieve anything. I know this because dd told me, she was about 14 at the time. I agree with OP insofar as parents with money can buy in services to plaster over the cracks in their parenting.

@NiceGerbil

I totally agree with you OP.

I don't understand the criticism.

If the idea is that people who live in certain areas, certain types of houses, have certain jobs, have a certain level of income, etc

Are somehow BETTER PEOPLE than other parts of the population?!

Because that's a very strange thing to think.

What OP is saying is that the exact same behaviour (and from her examples is not necessarily abusive or neglectful) would warrant SS/police intervention in a WC family but not in MC families and that's unfair on WC people.

Her premise is (at population level ,if not individual level)wrong , that's where the criticism comes from. Or at least some of it, posters have been going on various tangents throughout the thread.

If we do talk about unfairness, then that would be the MC children that fall through the cracks.

Social workers are mostly exhausted middle class professionals coming home to pick up their own kids late after a shit day, trying not to take their stress out on their own kids, opening a bottle of wine, sticking the telly on and putting a pizza in the oven.
You have to be parenting considerably worse than they do for it to be neglect and that's a low bar.

@missymayhemsmum

Social workers are mostly exhausted middle class professionals coming home to pick up their own kids late after a shit day, trying not to take their stress out on their own kids, opening a bottle of wine, sticking the telly on and putting a pizza in the oven. You have to be parenting considerably worse than they do for it to be neglect and that's a low bar.

Exactly.

“ The point of the thread was how it's all fun and japes when you're MC but you'd be frowned upon if living on a council estate.”

@catfunk - as a matter of interest, do you think your middle class friends who joke about getting drunk and not being able to look after their kids for the day are the ones hypocritically looking down on working class people for doing the same thing? Or are you thinking of a different segment of society doing the disapproving?

StrangeToSee

I don't wish to slate HV's, I'd never had previous problems with any, however the problem I had with the last one was the absolute disinterest in my baby or any concerns I might have. Her role seemed to be something else entirely.

In the end when my instinct that there was something not right needed acting on now, she actually became obstructive.

I have read such utter nonsense on this thread. I work in this field (though not a social worker). I can’t think of the last time when dealing with child protection issues that there was ever a discussion about parents jobs/ socio economic background. It is always ‘what is happening that is putting a child at risk of significant harm’.
Everyone in social care is tired and stressed and dealing with huge caseloads. It really is ‘what are the facts/ concerns’.
I was on with a social worker for at least an hour today talking about a family and not once did we discuss their social class or financial situation- it was all about the needs of the children and potential risks. The only difference if the same conversation had of been happening about a well off family would have been that the family would have had a different support plan as they may have been better able to adjust to a life changing situation due to having more space.

The point is that the well heeled are way less likely to come to the attention of SS etc in the first place.

@DingDongThongs

I had a wedding and I hired a nanny to look after my 2nd child

You are clearly superior. Well done.

@MissM2912

I have read such utter nonsense on this thread. I work in this field (though not a social worker). I can’t think of the last time when dealing with child protection issues that there was ever a discussion about parents jobs/ socio economic background. It is always ‘what is happening that is putting a child at risk of significant harm’. Everyone in social care is tired and stressed and dealing with huge caseloads. It really is ‘what are the facts/ concerns’. I was on with a social worker for at least an hour today talking about a family and not once did we discuss their social class or financial situation- it was all about the needs of the children and potential risks. The only difference if the same conversation had of been happening about a well off family would have been that the family would have had a different support plan as they may have been better able to adjust to a life changing situation due to having more space.

I don't see that other people on this thread have reason to lie they can only speak about their own experience.

Also you said: "The only difference if the same conversation had of been happening about a well off family would have been that the family would have had a different support plan as they may have been better able to adjust to a life changing situation due to having more space."

So class/money does make a difference then.

Nice Gerbil I don’t think that is true. Nearly all the things listed as ‘bad parenting’ for middle classes don’t warrant a safeguarding referral, any more than they do in working class areas. I see shocking things every day in a very deprived area and social work referrals rarely go in as they don’t meet the threshold. There seems to be a complete misconception that the working classes are being pestered by social workers all the time- that simply isn’t the reality in the area I work. Poverty can look a lot like neglect and professionals have to identify which is which.

Generalpost In this case money would make a huge difference. But the family isn’t treated differently because of lack of it- the exact same level of care and empathy is shown. It is just in this particularly heart breaking case the family’s living situation- through absolutely no fault of their own, are unable to meet the needs of all the children in the house. Social services would have been involved REGARDLESS but the support plans have to work around what is viable for the family. As happens all the time.
My point is that social workers don’t treat people differently because of class but every single case is different and a strengths based approach is used.

@NiceGerbil

The point is that the well heeled are way less likely to come to the attention of SS etc in the first place.

That's because poverty is more likely to look like neglect so without any info, at least some fact finding needs to take place.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

I'm solidly middle class, country living person. I don't recognise that sort of behaviour at all.

Same. Don't know anyone that does as you describe. I do however know people who can afford to have plenty of childcare that they can party/sleep off the hangover while someone else does the school run..... but that's a perfectly safe choice (if not one I would make...) so not exactly one where social services need to be involved.

This is my thinking. If parents are hungover on Sunday and so take the kids out for dinner instead of cooking, why is that a problem? As long as there is no drink driving involved for example, everyone gets fed, no-one spends money they don't have - what of it?

And in the OP's first example of the child whose dad had taken her out for the day because her mum was hungover - again, what of it? She had a non- hungover parent to care for her, so why is there an issue?

Obviously social services should pay attention to all child neglect, but false equivalencies are not helpful.

MissM

I posted this upthread

'
When I was young my best friend came from a family that was a total mess. Both parents alcoholic. Very violent towards each other. Kids looked after themselves and kept out of their way from quite young. Saw the dad enraged and physically pulling friend away wrestling her into car more than once. She was always ducking out and sleeping sometimes outside.

I asked my parents why they never tried to do anything. They looked thoughtful and just... Didn't think of it.

That was years ago but I imagine the reluctance to interfere in the lives of wealthy, professional, kids at private school types is still pretty common.'

That's my example.

Her home life was appalling.

@NiceGerbil

MissM

I posted this upthread

'
When I was young my best friend came from a family that was a total mess. Both parents alcoholic. Very violent towards each other. Kids looked after themselves and kept out of their way from quite young. Saw the dad enraged and physically pulling friend away wrestling her into car more than once. She was always ducking out and sleeping sometimes outside.

I asked my parents why they never tried to do anything. They looked thoughtful and just... Didn't think of it.

That was years ago but I imagine the reluctance to interfere in the lives of wealthy, professional, kids at private school types is still pretty common.'

That's my example.

Her home life was appalling.

So was mine. Add in the fact that I was adopted so I should be eternally grateful and it made my parents paragons of virtue , meant no one reported anything. No one reported the poor as dirt ,chaotic home life and severely neglected kids next door either though.

NiceGerbil I am sorry to hear about your friend. But to be completely honest- even if social services had have got involved, it is unlikely they would have done a lot more than keep an eye on things. The reality is, traumatic as it was, if her basic needs were being met, and she was going to a nice school, social services would probably have left her at home as the care system is likely to have been more damaging.

'There seems to be a complete misconception that the working classes are being pestered by social workers all the time- '

Yes I find that odd.

Class is such a vague idea and I'm sure that most posters have a different idea in their head as to what they mean.

Does working class mean..
Not educated past a certain age?
Doing less well paid work?
Where you live?
How much disposable income?
Family background?

I mean. It's meaningless.

As is middle class-
I think something like 70% of people in the UK see themselves as middle class.

So in the end what are we talking about?

Long term unemployed?
Low paid job?
In crap accomodation?

Or just I dunno like s couple who both left school at 16 and are self employed.. and doing very well?

A person who went to private school etc. For whatever reason in a council place in a dodgy part of town who drinks way too much. But can play the piano to a high standard and quite Chaucer?

I mean. Without knowing what everyone is meaning. It's all descended into stereotypes hasn't it.

I stand by my point that those with money in posh houses with respected jobs are way less likely to come to the attention of SS in the first place.

So I agree with OPs point.

@MissM2912

Generalpost In this case money would make a huge difference. But the family isn’t treated differently because of lack of it- the exact same level of care and empathy is shown. It is just in this particularly heart breaking case the family’s living situation- through absolutely no fault of their own, are unable to meet the needs of all the children in the house. Social services would have been involved REGARDLESS but the support plans have to work around what is viable for the family. As happens all the time. My point is that social workers don’t treat people differently because of class but every single case is different and a strengths based approach is used.

I get what your saying but I don't think (some) of them have much understanding. Of people who are working class they definitely look down on you and treat you like your stupid. One example is sw is making mum register with a new gp gave her a week to do it. Even though she still had access to a gp. And she's only staying at a temporary place for 4-6 weeks . It can take that long for everything to go from one surgery to the other and guess what I the next week or so she has to change gp again. What a waste of time that is . Making her go to play groups that she dies not want to go to . Even though she takes her child to do several activities a week . The sw would not even interact with her child when she came to visit . Now there is a new sw and he does not come across like he's above her. and actually interacts with the child if he tries to talk to him etc. They are so controlling that they actually make you feel scared to make certain decisions for your child incase your mot doing in their way.

I myself have had a fantastic social worker many years ago and I can't fault her. So there are bad and good .

MissM2912

Really?
No attempt to get either of the parents into help for alcohol?
No concern they were violent and injuring each other?
No concern at the dad being physical with the kids. And exhibiting utter and total rage over nothing?
No interest in my friend at least exhibiting worrying behaviours presumably due to it all?
No worries about her sometimes sleeping rough? A 14 yo girl?

Nothing?

Ok well then I suppose all those who knew things were bad made the right call? That's comforting.

' she was going to a nice school, '

And THIS right here is EXACTLY the OPs point. That I agree with.

Things can't be that bad! She's at a nice school.

Fab.