To think that 'middle class' parents get away with murder

[catfunk]

I grew up in a beautiful but modest part of the north with a fair amount of poverty and unemployment. Lots of families were under social services' care (?) police called out a lot, etc.

I now live in a fairly expensive city in the south, a fairly left wing liberal place where people party, lots of mums are 'trendy' types and generational wealth is quite common.

It struck me the other day that if the parents in my home town behaved like the parents in my current home there'd be real repercussions.
Noisy house parties whilst kids are in bed upstairs, parents getting drunk and staying out all night, recreational drug taking and being too hungover to do the school run. But it's ok because they're drinking champagne and expensive gin instead of tenants, and expensive cannabis tinctures instead of smoking resin?

None of the kids seem unhappy or affected and they do have lovely family times together of course but AIBU To think this is not fair ?

There is a SS definition of neglect which triggers investigation and possible action.
And then there is societies or MN definition of neglect…..a very broad range. Some people are outraged at the idea of parents drinking in the afternoon or 2 parents both drinking at the same time, or at children wearing clothes with holes in, or at people who don’t read with their children, or who don’t attend parents evening, or who smoke in the house with children, or who feed their kids all processed food, or who do t take them on educational visits, or who don’t have books in the house, or who do……

These are not definitions of neglect. They might be things some people on MN and society frown on and would t choose to do themselves, but that’s not the same as neglect. The word is used too easily and people use it in a way which shows a seignificant lack of empathy for the different ways people live and self reighteous sense that their own values are the only correct ones. Of course, neglect does exist and SS do have definitions if it and flags and triggers to look out for and of course it should be followed up. But it isn’t evidenced in every Mum having a couple of drinks in the afternoon, or putting their child in yesterday’s too which has good split down it.

• Unfairly highlighted you say? I’d say this thread has been validating and useful for people who have felt they weren’t really believed about their childhood pain.*

This . The unfairness is about MC children who are abused and neglected , but no one is paying attention,listens or acts on it. In my opinion, that happens mostly because on paper having money,opportunities etc. balances out the possible harm/risk of harm. After all the alternative is foster care ,possibly adoption if they're lucky ,and the outcomes sometimes aren't great either. With an ever increasing caseload, underfunding, the lack of services etc. The question of which kid do you save comes up often. And that's where MC kids lose out.It's not about parents MC or WC.

Sadly, the system misses out on too many kids regardless of their background.

The things being focused on here wouldn't even register as long as the children's needs were being met.

@FreekStar2

There are some very odd attitudes to alcohol on mumsnet in general. The belief that only alcoholics drink in the day is madness. If someone is drinking every day then they have a problem, but the idea that it is wrong to drink on a lunchtime date with a friend, or a bbq, or with a Sunday lunch out in a pub is weird thinking to me. Lots of people can enjoy a day-time drink and still be able to look after a child- I certainly can! I would have to drink a hell of a lot before I couldn’t. My friend hosted afternoon tea for her birthday just recently and nobody batted an eyelid at drinking a few glasses of Prosecco at 2pm! None of us are alcoholics!

I've noticed the opposite tbh, there's a real pervasive acceptance of drinking culture on MN. A recent thread was a woman asking if it was a problem that she drank daily as her DH expressed concern but she didn't think it was an issue, and many, many comments said that it was absolutely fine. Lots of jokes along the lines of 'ooh, anything more than a thimble of sherry at Christmas and you're a raging alcoholic teehee'.

There's been a rise of 'mummy drinking culture' in recent years, so many 'wine mom' memes, people talking openly about how they couldn't cope with their kids without a large gin, wine 'o' clock signs, I passed by a book in the library at the weekend called 'Why Mummy Drinks'. I agree there are odd attitudes to drinking on MN, but not in the way you describe. I have to admit I don't know anyone who'd invite other parents around in the day for an alcoholic drink. There must be certain social groups where this is seen as normal, but I'd certainly look askance at a friend if I showed up for a toddler playdate in the afternoon and they cracked open the wine.

@WombatChocolate

There is a SS definition of neglect which triggers investigation and possible action. And then there is societies or MN definition of neglect…..a very broad range. Some people are outraged at the idea of parents drinking in the afternoon or 2 parents both drinking at the same time, or at children wearing clothes with holes in, or at people who don’t read with their children, or who don’t attend parents evening, or who smoke in the house with children, or who feed their kids all processed food, or who do t take them on educational visits, or who don’t have books in the house, or who do……

These are not definitions of neglect. They might be things some people on MN and society frown on and would t choose to do themselves, but that’s not the same as neglect. The word is used too easily and people use it in a way which shows a seignificant lack of empathy for the different ways people live and self reighteous sense that their own values are the only correct ones. Of course, neglect does exist and SS do have definitions if it and flags and triggers to look out for and of course it should be followed up. But it isn’t evidenced in every Mum having a couple of drinks in the afternoon, or putting their child in yesterday’s too which has good split down it.

Reading the comments it's becoming more and more apparent that many posters have no idea what SS actually do, how they operate, the assessment procedures and thresholds or the fact that they are sometimes limited (for various reasons) in their powers or what they can offer/do to help.

@randomlyLostInWales

When we moved after birth of second child HV seem to flag us up as vunerable they gave no practical help- but did take to door stopping with no appointment and getting very angry with me if I was out.

In end I was uspet and spoke to my Mum - that was she was it she there for next weight in she was with me and she managed to drop a significant amoun to information about our higher educations backgrounds, income and family support.

That was it - not sure what it was that we had visible support - I had said- or someone confirming we had resouces but the constant door stopping which had started to feel like harrisment not support stopped.

After birth of third child DH was coincidentally there when HV turned up again no prior appointment had been made with us - she commented on his PhD graduation pciture asking why he was in fancy dress - and was visible taken back he has a PhD and that we had bought current house not rented. There were a few other things that stuck us as odd about it but I think we were moved into different category.

So I'd love to say class never plays a role but I think even professionals are human and may have class class bias or make assumptions with skew preceptions around class and resources avaliable.

I think its quite disgusting that had they carried on thinking you were working class maybe not well educated. They would have carried on bugging you . So it just gos to show how much working class have to but with with from professionals and there's more expectation from working class. I think I'm going to do a fancy dress photo and pretend I have a PhD 😅

@Monday26July actually the issue with drinking on MN is that it's very black and white and polarised.

It's either anything goes, let's outdrink each other or any kind of drinking or drinking that is outside a subjective and arbitrary norm must be a problem and needs moral judgement.

Real life is a lot more grey and has nuance. It's just as absurd to claim someone has a drinking problem because they can and will drink at 2 pm as it is to claim there isn't one because they have one glass in the evening.

[quote ObviousNameChage]@Monday26July actually the issue with drinking on MN is that it's very black and white and polarised.

It's either anything goes, let's outdrink each other or any kind of drinking or drinking that is outside a subjective and arbitrary norm must be a problem and needs moral judgement.

Real life is a lot more grey and has nuance. It's just as absurd to claim someone has a drinking problem because they can and will drink at 2 pm as it is to claim there isn't one because they have one glass in the evening.

[/quote]
You're right. I don't think the discourse around what is and isn't a 'real alcoholic' is helpful either, alcohol dependency is on a spectrum and it's not helpful to anyone to claim there is one true way to be an alcoholic and anything else is fine. It's possible to talk about behaviours being problematic without that being taken as stating the person is an alcoholic. People get extremely defensive when alcohol use is discussed which makes it hard to have a reasonable discussion.

I think its quite disgusting that had they carried on thinking you were working class maybe not well educated. They would have carried on bugging you . So it just gos to show how much working class have to but with with from professionals and there's more expectation from working class. I think I'm going to do a fancy dress photo and pretend I have a PhD 😅

Do you have any idea how much time,resources and money it would take to repeatedly visit (or bug as you call it) and assess every single working class family just because they are working class?

Regardless of which percentage you take into consideration (the figures vary ) it still equals to millions of people and families.

@ObviousNameChage

I think its quite disgusting that had they carried on thinking you were working class maybe not well educated. They would have carried on bugging you . So it just gos to show how much working class have to but with with from professionals and there's more expectation from working class. I think I'm going to do a fancy dress photo and pretend I have a PhD 😅

Do you have any idea how much time,resources and money it would take to repeatedly visit (or bug as you call it) and assess every single working class family just because they are working class?

Regardless of which percentage you take into consideration (the figures vary ) it still equals to millions of people and families.

I have no idea what it cost but it's definitely money wasted that could be spent where its more needed.

I had extra visits after I had a baby. I wasn’t discharged by midwife for weeks and then was on health visitor books for ages. I had loads of visits as I had PN depression. I clearly said a couple of things to Dr or HV that raised concerns and was offered extra support and phone calls etc.

Did I think they weee ‘bugging’ me? No, they were doing their job. Was it over the top? Possibly, but I had triggered interest and they were following their procedures. In most cases the risk is low and all is well, but sometimes these checks and ‘bugging’ prevents major issues arising. New borns are v vulnerable.

But again this shows how lots of people object to any interest being shown in them and think it’s totally unnecessary. It comes with the territory for workers in this area - they are often not welcome.

My view is that it’s better to be on the safe side. Better to check and support when it turns out to not be totally needed than to miss a case. There are limits to resources and how far this can be taken and actually what people are often objecting to as ‘bugging’ is very low level interest such as visits after birth. Why feel so annoyed and threatened by these? In itself, this attitude is never going to be very reassuring is it.

I also had extra visits after I had my second baby. I was really super low and the visitor was amazing. I appreciated it. I am very middle class and didn't resent being on anyone's radar.

Generalpost DH still doesn't completely find the photo thing amusing - though his reaction at the time was a picture .

He thinks his accent - strong slightly northern played a role there but he also had off reactions from some collgues - he works in academia - when it come up his Dad was a builder and Mum worked in a factory.

I was upset in same area duing a fair with mutlipe stalls some from local services other shops when a woman chased me down seeing me with DH and the kids trying to get me to sign up for their basic reading and writing courses - I had a MSc by then and was studying with OU but also had diagnosis of dyslexia so it felt a bit depressing.

I could have just done with the HV making shit harder at the time - I doubt it was just was just because we were coming across as "working class" .

I'm certainly not suggesting like some posters are trying to imply that all working class families all get door stopped .

The move so soon after birth of second child put us on their radar - it was quick but work constraints drove that and other than me coming down with mastis we were all fine.

It was we couldnt seem to get off their radar even after we'd clearly settled - plus they weren't helpful in any way but extremly stressful visits. I had a very helpful HV after first birth - northern city and they were lovely there.

Odd things seem to count against us - us not knowing local services I'd have though be go opportunity to help us - no anything but- me going out and meeting other mothers at groups finding out about local area a good thing right - no because I wasn't in the house when they randomly called round.

But it was strange how just how quickly they backed off - I did wonder if I was being paranoid but DH and my parents thought something was off.

It was an odd area all round- only place I ever lived I've had to complain about HCP - there was written evidence they lied again and again - there was a very paternalistic attitude in many services which I've never encounted in other parts of UK.

Doubless as this is MN there'll be loads of posters saying my experince can't possible be true because they've never has such an experience . It just means I can't dimiss the OP concerns - how wide spread class bias is I've no idea but it's not going to be the only factor in any action but people being human I think it odd to claim it never exits.

You see couples in high powered careers Mon to Friday their body is a temple. Come the weekend it's a different story.

Not defending them btw. My friend left the city career behind and became a vicar it saved her life

I could have just done with the HV making shit harder at the time

I’m sure she intended to be helpful, or why waste time and funds visiting you so often?

Perhaps she was worried about you or the baby because of something you said, or the way you said it.

One of my HVs kept visiting repeatedly, probably because she (rightly) suspected I had PND. Plus we were new to the area, had no local support and I couldn’t drive to any baby groups post birth so hardly went out. And baby had a difficult latch and didn’t sleep much. She knew we were comfortably off because we didn’t qualify for child benefit (she urged me to fill in the form so I had to tell her we were over the income bracket), she knew we were both educated to post grad level and both very MC etc. Maybe she suspected (wrongly) DV because once she turned up and I had bruises on my face from walking into an open cupboard door in my sleep deprived state. She didn’t ask directly but asked a lot about our relationship.

I didn’t feel she was checking up to see if I was a good parent, or to bother me; more she visited because she had concerns about my well-being. She didn’t offer ‘support’ in a formal way but she was adult company and a listening ear, and reassuring about baby’s sleep, feeding etc when I asked questions.

She also turned up unexpectedly (or sometimes I’d forget she was coming in the fog of having a newborn) so the apartment was often a mess or I’d be wearing milk stained pyjamas because the baby was nocturnal and day/night sort of blended into one at first. I probably looked horrified when she turned up unannounced and saw the place/me in that state! But I welcomed her visits once I relaxed around her.

Later, when I could drive again, she signed me up to a baby massage course that seemed to be more about helping isolated mums with PND. I didn’t realise this until I chatted to the other mums on the course and discovered they’d also been referred by their HVs... and it was more about taking care of ourselves and how to cope with a newborn than baby massage! I found it odd that each week there was a 30 minute ‘educational’ part until I realised we’d been specially selected as needing help. It was run by very kind midwives/assistants who offered to hold the babies if they cried or fussed. And the mums were from all walks of life, all classes and levels of education.

A lot of people complain about HVs interfering or monitoring but mine was a lifeline to me.

Yes, I was also booked onto baby massage as part of my PN depression support. I didn’t realise either that it was just for certain people, until I got there and everyone was pretty miserable.
Looking back on it now, I laugh. It was about trying to help us bond with our babies, to get out and spend time with others and I guess another chance to just keep a low level eye on us.

It wasn’t intrusive at all. It was kindly intended and it’s obviously been shown to help some new mums. Likewise, the visits to the house were there to help me and also to ensure my newborn was scared for and safe. Some newborns are not cared for and safe in homes with extreme PN depression or other issues. I’d rather they were rather zealous with me, than ignored what they had obviously seen as flags to raise concern.

But again, I’m a MC person and I dont feel threatened by authorities but rather I value ‘experts’ and their input. I didn’t feel my class or normal abilities were judged in any sense. However, for lots of people, they have a strong reaction against authority and always see it as interfering or the enemy. They feel judged and at a disadvantage.

Sometimes I think there is a genuine bias and people living in certain types of accommodation or from certain backgrounds might attract attention more quickly than others, but sometimes I don’t think there is, but people from WC backgrounds or these where attitudes to authority are quite strained PERCEIVE there is a bias, when actually there isn’t.

WombatChocolate I've found your posts measured and sensible but you need to understand that so much depends how you are spoken to and treated by those people also. The dynamic is entirely changed by it.
After a big gap in pregnancies and out of touch, I also assumed HV etc would be there for support advice and assistance, and would be interested in my baby and it's development etc. I was taken aback to find that wasn't what they perceived their role with me to be at all.
I can assure you no one has ever offered to sign me up for baby massage or any such niceties, let alone offer reassurance or help, including when I tried to reset their perceptions and ask directly.

Perhaps she was worried about you or the baby because of something you said, or the way you said it.

It couldn't possible be a professional bad at their job or with biais or a area with a particular professional culture that couldn't possible happen .

I have no idea why this HV was like this. Personally I think she was shit at her job - but only having me experince of her I can't really say that with any authority as I have no over view - DH thought we might be low hanging fruit near to where they were based so poping in and then ticking that visit had been done looked good for paper work - who knows.

As for thinking I had pnd - I know she did she made me take the questionaire 3 fucking times then insisted I must have lied because how could I possible not have pnd having just moved . My GP, and child centers workers who saw me regualrly once I found groups - nor any of my family had any concerns that I had pnd - they all though I was fine and I've never been digonsed with pnd and I had no concerns about my mental health. PND may be common but it's not universal.

I also fail to see how turning up complaining how I wasn't in the house means I "forgot" an appointment - she often admitted even in front of visiting family she hadn't made one -just expected me to be in. My parents are having similar issues with district nurse at the moment - expectation that can turn up when ever ignoring fact that other medical appointments mean sometimes they are out.

I haven't said all HV are bad in fact I clearly stated I had a good one with first baby in different location.

I've lived all over the UK never encounter class bias before or since and frankly I can't be sure it was that then just felt off in many little ways.

In fact service - not HV -we had to complain about the individual had come from neighbouring area which few years later hit press for massive failings - their attitude towards their patients was noted as a huge problem. Certainly many locals I met over the years had stories that seem also to show some issues with some services ( or more likely some people in those services )- so personally I don't think it was perception problem - I think there was a cultural issue with some services in that area.

I do have to wonder why so many are so quick to dismiss others experinces - how common they are - who knows - and how could we even know if we immediately dimiss minimise or blame people who experience problems.

This thread wasn't about the occasional glass of wine in the afternoon.
It was about parents absolutely caning it most weekends, throwing up in front of kids regularly, drugs etc as part of a normal week

@HorseRaddish

I think this may be a reflection of your social circle. I live in a mc area and don't recognise any of the behaviour you're describing. I've never had noisy parties or got drunk whilst looking after kids

@HorseRaddish for the 100th time I'm not saying all MC folk are like this. I'm what you would call MC and I'm not.
The point of the thread was how it's all fun and japes when you're MC but you'd be frowned upon if living on a council estate.

@Saoirse82

I grew up in a middle class area and this was definitely not my experience. The people I know who would be considered more middle class don't behave like this at all.

I didn't say all MC parents are like this @Saoirse82 I expect most are not.

Agree OP.

There's a few reasons for it- or were when I was growing up. Doubt they have changed.

Bigger houses/ detached etc means stuff happening isn't so obvious, visible etc.

Money to keep things under wraps. Kids get arrested. Good lawyer, upstanding family. Bright futures. Way more likely to get off. If it doesn't get dropped way before that.

Knowing what to say etc if anyone does come to see what's up.

Neighbours etc way less included to report the respectable family with the lawyer mum and the dad in investment banking.

That sort of thing.

When I was young my best friend came from a family that was a total mess. Both parents alcoholic. Very violent towards each other. Kids looked after themselves and kept out of their way from quite young. Saw the dad enraged and physically pulling friend away wrestling her into car more than once. She was always ducking out and sleeping sometimes outside.

I asked my parents why they never tried to do anything. They looked thoughtful and just... Didn't think of it.

That was years ago but I imagine the reluctance to interfere in the lives of wealthy, professional, kids at private school types is still pretty common.

@catfunk

This thread wasn't about the occasional glass of wine in the afternoon. It was about parents absolutely caning it most weekends, throwing up in front of kids regularly, drugs etc as part of a normal week

This often happens in WC environments too. Bar actual neglect and /or abuse , if the children's needs were being met you'd very rarely get SS interventions and even then it would be about help and support rather than removal.

All things being equal, that kind of parenting, rightly or wrongly wouldn't necessarily trigger serious action regardless of the children's background.

people from WC backgrounds or these where attitudes to authority are quite strained PERCEIVE there is a bias, when actually there isn’t

Interesting, I hadn’t thought of it this way. I suppose had I been from a different background I might have viewed her visits as intrusive. She was persistent but I put that down to her caring. Tbh I was completely at sea with my firstborn so I welcomed her company and motherly advice. The baby massage group was funny looking back, especially when the penny dropped that it was less baby massage more about bonding and talking about general baby problems.

so much depends how you are spoken to and treated by those people also. The dynamic is entirely changed by it

Of course. But it’s also easy to interpret spoken word/tone differently depending on how you’re feeling. Maybe some patients found her bossy or condescending. It never crossed my mind that she was visiting because of my social class or socioeconomic status, because it would be illogical to base visits on that.

Just read OPs posts. Long thread.

Round here there's plenty of adults drinking too much, definitely some do recreational drugs.

Behind glazing with a longish drive, who knows what's going on.

It's always been quite druggy and boozy round here.

If kids at private schools- certainly when I was growing up there was plenty of sex drugs all night parties. Drinking til puking/ passed out.

I imagine any girls that got pregnant would have been getting a termination ASAP. No teenage pregnancy at all at my school in any of the years I was there. Or at least no babies.

Natasha who is set for top results then medicine is no way going to be allowed to continue a pregnancy is she.

for the 100th time I'm not saying all MC folk are like this

It's obvious that's what you're getting at op...its just so many posters on here revel in their middle class status so seem to be taking it as a personal attack.