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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that 'middle class' parents get away with murder

901 replies

catfunk · 01/08/2021 12:59

I grew up in a beautiful but modest part of the north with a fair amount of poverty and unemployment. Lots of families were under social services' care (?) police called out a lot, etc.

I now live in a fairly expensive city in the south, a fairly left wing liberal place where people party, lots of mums are 'trendy' types and generational wealth is quite common.

It struck me the other day that if the parents in my home town behaved like the parents in my current home there'd be real repercussions.
Noisy house parties whilst kids are in bed upstairs, parents getting drunk and staying out all night, recreational drug taking and being too hungover to do the school run. But it's ok because they're drinking champagne and expensive gin instead of tenants, and expensive cannabis tinctures instead of smoking resin?

None of the kids seem unhappy or affected and they do have lovely family times together of course but AIBU To think this is not fair ?

OP posts:
wanttomarryamillionaire · 02/08/2021 12:50

@NickyOy

And why Madeleine McCanns parents got away with leaving their kids in an apartment when they were out having a meal. If that was a working class family they would have had social services come down on them like a tonne of bricks
This!!!
Bryonyshcmyony · 02/08/2021 12:58

The McCanns were investigated by social services on their return to the UK, to all those bleating on about it.

Bryonyshcmyony · 02/08/2021 12:58

And they didn't remove their other children, of course.

Iagreewithu · 02/08/2021 12:59

[quote GreatAuntEmily]@Walkaround
if you think less well off people have their children removed from them by social services so incredibly easily, how do you explain the death of Baby P?
That was in 2006 FGS - average of 62 children are thought to be killed in a year in the U.K from abuse or neglect. I spose because there weren't screaming headlines those don't count.
Unfortunately the screaming headlines over BBy P and the destroying of several Peoples careers by a public baying for blood has probably resulted in the rules being changed and many children now being removed into care for minor accidental injuries and mothers being jailed. That's what happens when people no longer reason sensibly but react emotionally. Unfortunately today's MPs bow to the loudest ranter.[/quote]
I think that with cases like baby p and other children. We have hear the words we will learn from this. Then ss starts over compensating so then children are put into care or ss interfer with a family so deeply they are practically controlling the family. All because they are over compensating.

I'm sure alot help families/children as well

sadperson16 · 02/08/2021 13:24

Why would SS potentially be involved with a family because a child had sepsis and then back off because a private school was mentioned?

That makes no sense at all.

Bryonyshcmyony · 02/08/2021 13:27

@sadperson16

Why would SS potentially be involved with a family because a child had sepsis and then back off because a private school was mentioned?

That makes no sense at all.

Nope Mumsnet sense maybe
Elleherd · 02/08/2021 13:27

Iagreewithu The situation around 'Baby P' was way way more complex and political than a lot of MN can or wish to accept.

I'm worried about getting this quite valuable in places, thread deleted, and if MN dislike what I've put please be aware it's all a matter of public record.
Amongst all the failings a former social worker called Nevres Kemal desperately tried to raise concerns that he'd been returned to the situation six months before he was killed.
She was turned on and eviscerated for stepping out of line and shining a light were it wasn't wanted. Various things were done to silence her, then a section 47 was launched on her and her teenage daughter as a final attempt to break and discredit her.

There was a lot of controversy and for those who don't know, having gone through all of that, her much loved daughter fell to her death following a freak car accident not so long ago, so please if the thread gets into what actually went on that failed 'Baby P' do think about how you post.

There are decent people and parents of all classes and situations that are treated deeply unfairly for many reasons, sometimes by the very people you think are there to help and support, and questionable one's who appear to be 'allowed' to treat children as they wish.

WombatChocolate · 02/08/2021 13:30

Yes, responses to these kind of issues go in waves. In many ways SS can’t win.

There will be a high or file case of abuse and failures such as Baby P, which results in an investigation and new procedures which SW then implement. And then there will be a case highlighted of over zealousness and families being investigated or action being taken without need and again things swing back the other way.

Individual social workers are always just implementing the procedures as they stand at the time. Sometimes the procedures have holes or are over zealous and sometimes individual workers or areas interpret them in a way which is later called into question. Within all this, there can be an over-focus on certain indicators of neglect or abuse which can lead to individuals feeling targeted over seemingly negligible, daft things, because they just happen to come on the radar because of one aspect which is currently popular to look out for.

Re bias within SS, they are very aware of the risks of this. Training will be given about it and advice about how to guard against it….this could be related to race or class or whatever. Again, sometimes attempts to avoid bias can result in swings too far the other way.

Nothing will ever be perfect and sadly we will always hear about cases where a child has slipped through the net now and again. Some parents are either abusive or neglectful and can be extremely cunning in hiding it. Systems are in place however to plug some of the gaps of the past.

And it will always be the case too that people disagree with where SS do and don’t get involved and also misunderstand the thresholds needed for involvement or limited/no involvement, there is huge misunderstanding as shown on this thread, where people talk about certain actions/activities being things which would lead to SS ‘throwing the book at certain groups’ when in reality, SS really wouldn’t be interested in such things at all. In particular there is a lot of misunderstanding about processes by which children are taken into care and the regularity of it. A mythology seems to develop about it, particularly in some communities. I can see why it happens becaue some communities mistrust those in authority and especially SS and expect only bad and unwarranted things to come from them. They are unable to see any interaction with them as a positive thing or positively intended.

The comments about MM on this thread also show lots of assumptions about the family, which remain and continue to be held strongly by a number of people. There are strong views about what should have happened to the family and involvement of SS….a real certainty about what is right or wrong about the way the case was handled or what SS do and don’t intervene with. Again, I’m pleased that such things are not left to the ‘mob’ but to proper procedures. Sadly, even in this thread, I detect what I’d call a real mob mentality and desire to be judge and jury towards certain people and cases, that often we know little about.

The very nature of SS involvement in peoples lives will always be controversial and rarely welcomed. As a PP said, if SW never receive complaints, they probably aren’t doing their job well….this doesn’t of course mean the complaints are sensible or will be upheld, quite simply that SS involvement is rarely welcomed and is often not appreciated or felt warranted. No-one if any class likes to be looked into…..and even when it is at the lowest level of information gathering, people are automatically defensive and critical and find it hard to be balanced in their assessments about what is going on. It is the nature of the beast.

LaraDecouvrie · 02/08/2021 13:34

@Elleherd you are absolutely right!

Maggiesfarm · 02/08/2021 13:35

NickyOy

And why Madeleine McCanns parents got away with leaving their kids in an apartment when they were out having a meal. If that was a working class family they would have had social services come down on them like a tonne of bricks
......
They didn't get away with anything! They still don't, more than ten years later. What do you want, have them imprisoned for making a mistake? A mistake that cost them dearly. Where's your compassion?

I fail to see what the McCanns have to do with this anyway.

Brainwave89 · 02/08/2021 13:35

[quote Walkaround]@Brainwave89 - and if you had worked in a pub in a working class area, you think the drunk parents would have been more apologetic to you?! Or that you would have reported them to social services yourself if you had been in a more working class area, but somehow felt unable to do so while working in your posh bar??[/quote]
I think if I had worked in a pub in working class area there would have been an equal number of parents behaving badly. They would however have been judged harsher.

WombatChocolate · 02/08/2021 13:37

Horrible mob mentality towards the MM family.

sadperson16 · 02/08/2021 13:44

@Elleherd, thank you for alerting us to this situation. A very sad one.

Walkaround · 02/08/2021 13:44

@Brainwave89 - judged more harshly by you, or by whom? I can’t think of anyone who would do anything other than judge harshly a parent who happily told them they were too pissed to take their own child to A&E, having spent the afternoon drinking in front of them in a pub or bar.

catfunk · 02/08/2021 13:53

@ConstanceGracy

How refreshing, more middle class bashing because we are all clearly druggies who drink champagne for breakfast 🙄 Think you’ve watched too much Motherland.
You've misunderstood my post
OP posts:
catfunk · 02/08/2021 13:55

@Walkaround

Drinking excessively and taking drugs is not a class thing, it’s a personality thing.
Please read the initial post properly. Never said it was. Said MC are less likely to have any consequences for it
OP posts:
justasking111 · 02/08/2021 14:00

We went abroad same summer Maddie went missing. Guess who was the mug sat in the playground with a coffee in the dark alone watching all the kids whilst their parents got drunk on the other side of the bridge

TheTallOakTrees · 02/08/2021 14:08

@WombatChocolate

Horrible mob mentality towards the MM family.
It's not a mob mentality. Some people actually find it really hard to believe that some parents think it is ok to leave very young children so they can go out drinking. They have to live with the consequences of their neglect forever. The poor siblings have to live without their sister. It was all so unnecessary they either take children with them, use a babysitting service or one stays home and watching their children. It was every single night and the child in an unlocked apartment would not have gone missing if supervised by parents. Apologists for neglect don't have the moral high ground by calling people a mob for saying how shocked they are at what those parents did. Some of us would never leave our children like that - being ill, choking, wandering off from unlocked rooms or something else is likely and young children deserve to be cared for.
Whatabambam · 02/08/2021 14:13

Bristol?

Brainwave89 · 02/08/2021 14:14

[quote Walkaround]@Brainwave89 - judged more harshly by you, or by whom? I can’t think of anyone who would do anything other than judge harshly a parent who happily told them they were too pissed to take their own child to A&E, having spent the afternoon drinking in front of them in a pub or bar.[/quote]
The woman in question was accompanied by a number of friends. No one appeared shocked by her behaviour, no one batted so much as an eyelid. IMO there was a sense of entitlement, which I saw more than once from well healed parents.

Elleherd · 02/08/2021 14:15

TheTallOakTrees People aren't being apologists for neglect. They just recognize that those particular parents have paid an ultimate price and their lives will be forever defined by their choices, so feel that the judgement of those of us who know that couldn't have ever happened to us because we wouldn't let it, adds nothing worthwhile.

DdraigGoch · 02/08/2021 14:15

@WhatsMyNameGonnaBeNow

I think it’s really interesting too that a few posters have used the term bohemian with regard to OPs description of these particular mc parents lifestyle. Not in a million years would anyone use that word to describe the very same behaviour when champage is replaced with lager and the event moved to a wc area. There are much more negative and damning words used in that scenario…

I’m not taking a shot at those posters btw. I just think it’s indicative of how people can view the exact same behaviours very differently depending on the class of those exhibiting the behaviour.

Well quite, one family's Bohemian free-spirit is another family's feral brat.
Walkaround · 02/08/2021 14:37

@catfunk - please read your own thread carefully. Not all comments relate directly to your first post.

Walkaround · 02/08/2021 14:45

@Brainwave89 - so you think the other parents out drinking with drunk working class parents would be judging their friends do you, despite clearly being of the same mentality, or they would not be taking their kids to a pub or bar to go drinking together in the first place? That there is something especially accepting amongst middle class friendships that doesn’t exist amongst working class friendships? And were you shocked enough to report them to social services or not? Or are you just being one of those judgemental types who always finds something to be judgemental about, whether it’s people drinking when they shouldn’t, or middle class drunk people being more “entitled” than working class drunk people, but who never puts their money where their mouth is?

rhowton · 02/08/2021 14:45

@Bryonyshcmyony , because it genuinely looked like neglect. I had documented everything from start to finish on my phone including photos and videos of her getting slightly worst every day and luckily had recorded all of the phone calls to the doctors (6 phone calls in total with them saying I was being dramatic and that it was only chicken pox). It was on the 5th day when I just refused to be ignored and took her down to the doctors and they blue lighted her.