To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

@youvemademyshitlist

YANBU and I think the vast majority of people think this.

The cynic in me thinks that the increase in mixed relay events across the olympics (triathlon, track, swimming etc) is to get people used to males and females competing at the same time to pave the way for increasing numbers of trans people (and lets be honest, it'll be mainly transwomen) competing in sporting events. By the time the current tweens/teens are old enough to compete, we'll have had 2 or 3 olympics with these events and for the vast majority, it'll seem less jarring to see males racing against females.
It doesn't bode well for female sports sadly.

I thought exactly the same thing when I saw the mixed sex relay for running and swimming.

A shift is happening and we women are voiceless and powerless.

Elsewhere in Orwellian World, MP's have ignored our letters, replied with inclusivity jargon, we've been banned from Facebook groups, kicked off Twitter, doxxed, visited by Police, had our children distressed as we're taken in custody (not given sanitary products, not given a chance to breastfeed), lost contracts, lost jobs, been threatened with rape, violence and death, hounded, shouted down, chased out of our own women's meetings, called hateful, called 'T*erf' - all in progressive countries, all here in the UK, right on our own doorsteps.

The inclusion of men in women's sport makes me laugh, bitterly, recollecting how male football fans threw a massive three-day mantrum over the proposed ESL a few months ago.
I thought that was a very effective protest. They didn't leave it to players to object, as some are suggesting women athletes should do. They - the customers - targeted the clubs concerned and made it very clear they would remove their custom if the proposals went ahead.

Of course there are differences too. One was that they had massive media courage and commentator weren't too scaredy to talk about it as they are in this case.

Nevertheless women are big consumers of sport and we play a huge, unsung role in nurturing young athletes. I think we have more power than we realise - it's a case of whether we're prepared to use it.

@LostDonkey thanks. That's one of them. There's another somewhere.

I don't know how any sporting official on anyone of these deciding committees can look anyone in the eye ever again.

[quote BlueLobelia]@BlackAlys this is the photo I think you referred to up thread of the downcast women who should be one place higher on the podium[/quote]
That's the one.
Honestly, my heart aches when I see it. Even more so when you realise what one of those women endured in her younger years.

[quote OhHolyJesus]Apologies, I haven't read the full thread so not sure if this has been shared already.

It usefully lists the women who have lost out in this Olympics due to the presence of a man and I'm reminded that it was only in 2012 that women were represented in each sports category, so women have had less than a decade of fully female participation.

fairplayforwomen.com/women-are-losing-their-olympic-dreams/?fbclid=IwAR3K8q1jbGLAfAs4DlyFFppGjnK5iZfXfZ8QpuHBsmPqWEfiU1QJnwWlOEw[/quote]
This is a brilliant article. And one that crushes the soul. It's devastating for women.

“BlackAlys
Elsewhere in Orwellian World, MP's have ignored our letters, replied with inclusivity jargon, we've been banned from Facebook groups, kicked off Twitter, doxxed, visited by Police, had our children distressed as we're taken in custody (not given sanitary products, not given a chance to breastfeed), lost contracts, lost jobs, been threatened with rape, violence and death, hounded, shouted down, chased out of our own women's meetings, called hateful, called 'T*erf' - all in progressive countries, all here in the UK, right on our own doorsteps.“

Yes, they take women’s trophies.

And to complete the progress of injustices and lies used against women in the name of ‘inclusivity’, when a trans woman with a penis commits a crime, including a typically male sex crime, it will be recorded as being a crime by a woman.

If TWAW and enter sports competitions as a women, it follows that TMAM and should enter as men.

But of course they won't as they wouldn't stand a chance. But presumably transmen would be barred from female categories as they are men.

They are the ones who will be locked out of ALL competition but I don't see the Olympic committee too worried about the lack of inclusion there?

How do women make similar protests, @Floisme? Maybe 'mantrum' was the wrong word, but it just pisses me off how men only seem to think their sport is important.

Someone on Twitter a while back suggested that all female athletes wear an XX symbol on their tops while competing. Perhaps fans could too. But really effective protests, as in the threat to cancel season tickets and not buy strips, aren't as applicable to female sports.

YANBU unreasonable op. A man is competing in the women’s category and the Olympic Committee are encouraging it.
It makes me white hot with rage (like Janice Turner, who wrote brilliantly about it in The Times yesterday). And you know what? It’s NOT WRONG that this makes me angry. I’m not a bigot. I’m angry that women are being pushed aside, repeatedly, for men. That women’s achievements are being denigrated, that new ‘records’ are being set by men that women will never be able to beat in their own categories in the future. That for all their hard work and training they could be destroyed in the final race by a man who waltzes in and says he identifies as a women.
It makes me white hot with fury, the GASLIGHTING of it all. Not least the tripe trotted out by people like Elliot Page ‘trans kids will die if they can’t play sports’. Trans kids CAN play sport - in the correct sex category. Make men more accepting of people who identify as women who want to play on their teams. This isn’t women’s problem to solve. There needs to be ‘women’s’ teams and ‘open’ - so men and people who identify as women.

People need to ask why it’s NEVER an issue that transmen are shattering records and threatening the safety of the men they play with or against.

People need to ask why it’s overwhelmingly women who raise questions and objections to trans rights. It’s not because men are overwhelmingly kinder and more accepting is it? It’s because women are the ones who suffer as a result of biological men being admitted to their sports categories and single sex spaces.
And why is that? Because sex is real, biological advantages and threats are real and denying those things are NOT FAIR.

@littlequestion

If TWAW and enter sports competitions as a women, it follows that TMAM and should enter as men.

But of course they won't as they wouldn't stand a chance. But presumably transmen would be barred from female categories as they are men.

They are the ones who will be locked out of ALL competition but I don't see the Olympic committee too worried about the lack of inclusion there?

I can't find it now but there was mention of a TM in the Olympics- but competing in a women's team.

There’s something unsavoury about looking at photographs or footage of athletes and trying to figure out if they are male.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do this or that it is wrong to be thinking along these lines, more that it seems unkind to be suspicious. It is horrible that we are in a climate where there is realistic room for such suspicions — you can hardly be accused of being overly paranoid.

Maybe we’ll move to chromosome-based competition. You can be any gender you like but compete in XX / XY categories. (No doping.)

YANBU! This is simply appalling. There is a sex based category for every person. Women should not have to compete against a biological man who still retains the advantage of male puberty and high testosterone compared to women. It is so sad, and I am teaching my son and daughters about this.

@notagermannoun

How do women make similar protests, *@Floisme? Maybe 'mantrum' was the wrong word, but it just pisses me off how men only seem to think their* sport is important.

Someone on Twitter a while back suggested that all female athletes wear an XX symbol on their tops while competing. Perhaps fans could too. But really effective protests, as in the threat to cancel season tickets and not buy strips, aren't as applicable to female sports.

I think it would need a different type of boycott, but women support sport in all kinds of less visible ways: PE teaching, coaching, promoting... hell how long would non-professional clubs survive if women stopped taking their kids to training?

It needs someone with more imagination than me, and it needs thinking through. And also women would need to be prepared to carry it through - which would have consequences, possibly in some cases for our own children, which is why so often we don't take action. But I don't accept that we don't have any power, I think it's a case of whether we're prepared to use it.

I can't find it now but there was mention of a TM in the Olympics- but competing in a women's team.

There are at least two non binary females competing in the Olympics, one in football and the other in skate boarding. Both are of course still competing with the women.

It would be easy to check the sexes of all the athletes, someone is collecting daily saliva samples for COVID testing.

In case it's not been mentioned on this thread, don't forget that one of the world's best known transwomen won an Olympic gold fair and square - for the decathlon, which is only available to men.

Many women athletes have to make hard choices that men don't, such as delaying becoming a parent until after the peak of their sporting career. Transwomen with any sense of sporting fairness should likewise make a choice. Defer medical transitioning, or accept that their performance may be impaired and just participate in sports socially.

It would be easy to check the sexes of all the athletes, someone is collecting daily saliva samples for COVID testing

In the old days, women athletes (including young girls)were given internal exams to make sure they were female. No one cared about their feelings or dignity then.

Now, women athletes have penises.

@BlackAlys I only realised how much all of this had infiltrated society a couple of years ago, I know many other people have been aware for a lot longer! I think before a couple of years ago, I was aware of sport, aware of the 'toilet wars' in America, but thought it would never happen. You are right, once you see it, its really hard to un-see it. The fact that schools teach this sort of thing, young people are told that biological sex isn't real, health care campaigns now say people with a cervix, instead of women, but an equivalent mens one, still just says men, instead of testicle havers (or whatever), its all crazy, and IMO very much reeks of misogyny and men, who think that are women, bullying women.And as someone upthread said (or was that on another one) as women default is to be kind and accepting, many of us are promoting this and allowing it happen. God know what society will be like in 10 years when no ones knows what/who anyone is, what they identify as and who should be in what space - I don't want to shower next to a penis unless its my partner, someone I'm shagging or if I am on a nudist beach, the safeguarding nightmare in the future is going to be a nightmare. Anyway, I digress OP YANBU.

@erinaceus

There’s something unsavoury about looking at photographs or footage of athletes and trying to figure out if they are male.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do this or that it is wrong to be thinking along these lines, more that it seems unkind to be suspicious. It is horrible that we are in a climate where there is realistic room for such suspicions — you can hardly be accused of being overly paranoid.

Maybe we’ll move to chromosome-based competition. You can be any gender you like but compete in XX / XY categories. (No doping.)

I just admit I have found myself doing this on occasion and feel awful for it. As if women’s bodies are not scrutinised and judged enough as it is. But I think it’s a natural alert response due to the amount of men already competing in women’s categories.

I’m not sure what happens currently for competitors to prove their eligibility and how it is handled if someone ‘looks’ male but wanting to compete in women’s sports. I’m not sure what the situation is on legal documents recording birth sex around the globe but if any country allows that to be changed by self ID then how else can we prove who are male and female other than chromosome testing?

I think it would need a different type of boycott, but women support sport in all kinds of less visible ways: PE teaching, coaching, promoting... hell how long would non-professional clubs survive if women stopped taking their kids to training?

Or if women stopped volunteering - my observation is that a lot of children's sports clubs rely very heavily on mainly women volunteers.

I think also it might be possible as women who volunteer and pay for children's sports lessons to push sports clubs in a different direction - focused on child wellbeing and not so focused on competitive sports. If there's no level playing field for girls I just don't see the point of the competitive focus any more. There are a lot of official bodies that have drunk the cool aid that club members pay subs to - that could all stop (and save a bit of cash) for a start. We do have economic power as the main group paying for sport at a children's grassroots level.

Are the levels of various substances tested for doping the same for men and women? In some cases they probably shouldn't be.
And in the case of testosterone, presumably they actually do need to know which sex the competitor is, women can't dope with it up to the level allowed for transwomen.

@Rainy365 That’s exactly how I feel — womens’ bodies are scrutinised and judged too much anyway, and now there is this added layer of scrutiny. A female athlete being accused of being a man based on their appearance might feel mortified!

Prompted by @YetAnotherSpartacus’s message I looked up sex verification in sport on Wikipedia; it is indeed funny to think that not that long ago women were being sex-tested to weed out potential cheating men posing as women.

Prompted by @YetAnotherSpartacus’s message I looked up sex verification in sport on Wikipedia; it is indeed funny to think that not that long ago women were being sex-tested to weed out potential cheating men posing as women

I read an article about this once where an older woman (at the time) athlete explained how the older ones would take the younger ones aside and explain what was about to happen to them to prepare them. If you think about some of the gymnasts they were very young. Some of the women reported being traumatised by the way they were treated.

'Faster, higher, stronger - together' is the Olympic moto, but nothing about fairness, and I expect that's because Olympic history is full of unfairness. Nothing changes