To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

I was looking at the link someone posted upthread, on sex testing of athletes, & there's this whole fascinating history of athletes competing in female events &, well, turning out not to be female. Over decades.

Some appear to have had genuinely undiagnosed DSDs (interestingly subsequently transitioning to live as male in retirement is a bit of a trend). Some were probably deliberate cheats who knew perfectly well they were male.

One thing that really stands out is that there appear to have been absolutely NO instances of athletes competing in male events but subsequently turning out to be female.

A) it never happens it seems & b) no one is looking for it, worrying about it, or expecting to find it or testing for it.

It's a complete non problem throughout the entire history of competitive athletics, as far as I can see.

So what does this tell us about a) which sex has the biological advantages & b) the fact that the entirety of athletics officialdom has always bloody known this?

YANBU

I too fell down a bit of an internet rabbit hole and was looking at the history of sex verification in sports. I found a paper from the early nineties (which incidentally is arguing against using DNA to verify sex on the basis that the test is not very good) which concludes thusly:

“Athletes arriving in the ranks of the elite do so with both a sporting and a personal history, having made a journey on which any doubts about their gender would have been raised long before they reached international level. It is very hard to imagine, in this age of communal dressing rooms and showers, that a man could reach the top level in women's competition without being detected. In addition, an individual's gender, consistent with the appearance of the external genitalia, is routinely recorded during medical examinations which all athletes are required to undergo. The final check as to whether an athlete is a woman or not takes place at dope control when the presence or absence of a penis will be obvious to the official present as the athlete passes urine for the drug testing sample.“

What is jarring to me about this article (and similar ones I was reading) is that keeping men out of womens’ sport is a given, there is no pussyfooting around whether some men ought to be allowed to compete in womens’ events. I wonder what the scientists looking at sex verification in sports around that time make of today’s situation.

(That quote is from this paper: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1450892/)

@OvaHere

It's a travesty this is happening. I can't bring myself to watch any of this Olympics knowing how misogynistic the IOC is.

I know it's difficult because there are many great athletes who are in no way to blame for this but I'm voting with my feet and not giving any of it my viewing.

I can't have any respect for the Olympics at this point knowing they care so little about fair competition for women.

Me too. This has made a mockery of the competition.

[quote erinaceus]I too fell down a bit of an internet rabbit hole and was looking at the history of sex verification in sports. I found a paper from the early nineties (which incidentally is arguing against using DNA to verify sex on the basis that the test is not very good) which concludes thusly:

“Athletes arriving in the ranks of the elite do so with both a sporting and a personal history, having made a journey on which any doubts about their gender would have been raised long before they reached international level. It is very hard to imagine, in this age of communal dressing rooms and showers, that a man could reach the top level in women's competition without being detected. In addition, an individual's gender, consistent with the appearance of the external genitalia, is routinely recorded during medical examinations which all athletes are required to undergo. The final check as to whether an athlete is a woman or not takes place at dope control when the presence or absence of a penis will be obvious to the official present as the athlete passes urine for the drug testing sample.“

What is jarring to me about this article (and similar ones I was reading) is that keeping men out of womens’ sport is a given, there is no pussyfooting around whether some men ought to be allowed to compete in womens’ events. I wonder what the scientists looking at sex verification in sports around that time make of today’s situation.

(That quote is from this paper: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1450892/)[/quote]
The irony in that paper would be bloody hilarious if today’s criteria wasn’t so devastating for women.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

It would be easy to check the sexes of all the athletes, someone is collecting daily saliva samples for COVID testing

In the old days, women athletes (including young girls)were given internal exams to make sure they were female. No one cared about their feelings or dignity then.

Now, women athletes have penises.

Fucking hell. This just gets worse and worse when you look beyond the facade.

We need more high profile profile athletes, high profile anyone to start the discussion, but I'm betting my mortgage payments that all presenters and sports commentators will be strangely quiet about the whole thing.

This thread needs renaming...

"Over 2000 women say NO"

Presumably no trans have decided to compete in female beach volleyball and have to wear a skimpy swimsuit yet? Then there would be male uproar for sure.

@YoComoManzanas

Presumably no trans have decided to compete in female beach volleyball and have to wear a skimpy swimsuit yet? Then there would be male uproar for sure.

I imagine the athletes would all be allowed to wear shorts then.

@YoComoManzanas

Presumably no trans have decided to compete in female beach volleyball and have to wear a skimpy swimsuit yet? Then there would be male uproar for sure.

I think male gymnasts competing in the female side are allowed to wear shorts to help preserve their dignity.

@WomaninBoots

This thread needs renaming...

"Over 2000 women say NO"

Love it!

@YoComoManzanas

Presumably no trans have decided to compete in female beach volleyball and have to wear a skimpy swimsuit yet? Then there would be male uproar for sure.

There is a transwoman who competes in volleyball for Brazil:

Tifanny Abreu (born 1984, Goiás, Brazil) is a Brazilian volleyball player. She was the first trans woman to play in the Brazilian Women's Volleyball Superliga.

Ms. Abreu, 33, is the first transgender volleyball player to make it to Brazil’s top ranks. If she qualifies for the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo — which experts say is probable — she would be making history as one of the first openly transgender athletes to participate in the Games.

I can't find any information as to whether or not they are at the Tokyo Olympics.

I wouldn't be so sure that Beach Volleyball doesn't go the same way, the male response would certainly be interesting.

@userchange902

I'm going to start entering children's' competitions, I've always felt young at heart and really do identify as a 16 year old, you can't prove otherwise so I have a right to enter the competition despite my age, you can't exclude me.

If you notice, many TW sportspersons are able to change their age as well as their sex. So many TWs who, had they been competing as their biological sex, would have been aged out of competing years ago. Past it. Has beens. Now they get to compete and win against girls almost half their age because female competitors of the same age as the TW would have been retired long ago.

Just look at 6ft 8", 52 year old Gabriella Ludwig TW who identifies as a woman, but not just a woman, no. She is apparently a teen/early twenties college girls basketball player. Formerly a mediocre male player, ex navy and assistant basketball coach who, despite owning a home nearby applied for and was granted housing in the college female dorms with young college women/girls. Somehow I cannot imagine a 52 year old mom who used to play sports in college, joining a college team 30 years later and moving in with the youngsters so why is a man doing it?

To prove he can. It's the power. Or the perversion.

2074 votes, 98% YANBU

How can we protest about this?

@sst1234

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/57989022

Here’s the BBC’s take on this. A gushing, emotional article full of praise for the athlete, almost whitewashing the fears and concerns of the vast majority of female population. Honestly l, when you see the national broadcaster being so blatantly biased, the argument about scrapping the license fee starts to appeal.

I haven't paid my tv license for two years largely because the organisation is hugely misogynistic and also has covered up for paedophiles (Savile) with little to no remorse.

Look into it, we don't miss it.

Perhaps the DM may pick up on it......

2074 votes, 98% YANBU

So 41 people think that it's okay for blokes to steal Olympic places from women... I'm amazed it's so many tbh.

You just can't watch BBC Iplayer or live tv. But most shows you'd want to watch end up on amazon prime or elsewhere anyway and it's cheaper to buy them than fork out the best part of 200 quid a year.

We pay for Disney+

I can't vote as on the app but you can add me to the 98% that think it's unfair for Hubbard to compete in the women's category.

Ms. Abreu, 33, is the first transgender volleyball player to make it to Brazil’s top ranks. If she qualifies for the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo — which experts say is probable — she would be making history as one of the first openly transgender athletes to participate in the Games.

I can't find any information as to whether or not they are at the Tokyo Olympics.

I wouldn't be so sure that Beach Volleyball doesn't go the same way, the male response would certainly be interesting.

@RedDogsBeg - according to the Seattle Times, Tifanny Abreu did not make Brazil’s final Olympic roster.

Tiffany joined the Brazilian Women’s Volleyball Superliga in 2017, five years after retiring from an international volleyball career as a male.

A different type of retirement plan to other male athletes.

Just look at 6ft 8", 52 year old Gabriella Ludwig TW who identifies as a woman, but not just a woman, no. She is apparently a teen/early twenties college girls basketball player. Formerly a mediocre male player, ex navy and assistant basketball coach who, despite owning a home nearby applied for and was granted housing in the college female dorms with young college women/girls. Somehow I cannot imagine a 52 year old mom who used to play sports in college, joining a college team 30 years later and moving in with the youngsters so why is a man doing it?

Someone will be along shortly to make excuses for this behaviour and/or insult you for pointing it out but surely no one can be so naive that the motivation for a 52 year old male moving into female college dorms isn't blindingly obvious.

It's not the first male I've heard if who claims to be a "girl". Google Stephonknee. In that situation Stephonknee is a "6 year old girl" who has been adopted by a couple who also have a young female child. Stephonknee is a playmate for the little girl in the house and has a sexual relationship with both parents. Move along nothing to see here!

I am very glad this thread has stayed in AIBU as SO many people in real life (outside of the FWR board, now called 'feminism: sex and gender discussions') seem to be unaware of - or possibly don't want to know/talk about - this issue. If you have voted YANBU on this thread please follow that board....this issue doesn't just affect sports but also prisons, hospitals, DV refuges, rape services, crime stats, women's and girls' toilets and changing rooms, child protection, lesbians bullied to have sex with 'lesbian' trans'women' ...the list goes on and on. The 'Fair Play for Women' Facebook page/website is a good place to go for a summary of the issues. Thank you.

What time is that person competing tomorrow (Uk time) ? Unless they feign an injury or pull out because they want to pretend they are as awesome as Simone Biles.

This makes me SO angry, that I could scream. No man should ever be able to compete in a women's category, for any sport. It is CHEATING, plain and simple. I am flabbergasted that it has been allowed. I am amazed that any human being (Hubbard), could be so non self aware, and not consider himself a cheat for entering the wrong category. How is he not dying with shame? How could he stand on the number one spot on a podium, without being thoroughly embarrassed? Why, why why, is this being allowed to happen? This is the end of women's sports. Why is it always women who get shafted? I'm fucking outraged.