To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

No I don’t think she should be competing in the women’s category.

I think that more thought needs to be given about how to include trans athletes in sport, while maintaining fairness and equal access to sport for females.

I think the olympics committee (or whatever they’re called) have already mentioned they don’t think the current set up is working.

This is a really difficult issue. I think sport, like a few other issues like prison etc, are areas in which a lot of thought needs to be given about how to treat all people in a safe and fair way.

A third category seems like the best option.

But I suspect that for many it's not about actually competing, but more about harming women, and if there were a third category they wouldn't be happy with that.

I don't think it's particularly difficult.
Open category.
Women's category.

This is a really difficult issue

No, it's really not that's difficult. Males don't get to compete in women's sports, no matter how they identify. They don't get women's places on shortlists. They don't get put in women's prisons. That's simple and perfectly fair.

If there needs to be a 'third space' - e.g. a trans category for sports, a trans prison, a trans shortlist - that seems fair to me, too. Just stop stealing from women.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

A third category seems like the best option.

But I suspect that for many it's not about actually competing, but more about harming women, and if there were a third category they wouldn't be happy with that.

The goal is validation. They want access to women's spaces and to be around women to help them feel more like the women they wish they were.

Women are props in their play. But characters to make them feel like they're one of the ladies.

@Floisme

I don't think it's particularly difficult. Open category. Women's category.

What like an open category anyone could enter?

@judgejudyrocks

This makes me SO angry, that I could scream. No man should ever be able to compete in a women's category, for any sport. It is CHEATING, plain and simple. I am flabbergasted that it has been allowed. I am amazed that any human being (Hubbard), could be so non self aware, and not consider himself a cheat for entering the wrong category. How is he not dying with shame? How could he stand on the number one spot on a podium, without being thoroughly embarrassed? Why, why why, is this being allowed to happen? This is the end of women's sports. Why is it always women who get shafted? I'm fucking outraged.

It is outrageous.

It makes more sense when you realise it's not about winning - of course any real athlete would feel shame, embarrassment. It's about harming women. When you see it through that lens, it makes a lot more sense.

The IOC are enabling this.

Note how non-binary female athletes have managed to compete in the women's category. Somehow despite their gender not matching their sex they are able to compete in the correct sex-based category.

Because gender has fuck all to do with ability in sports.

Cheats just don’t care about anyone but themselves, they have no shame. They want all the glory without putting the same effort in. Look at Lance Armstrong - 7 titles won, greatest cyclist of all time (at that time). Doping all along. Lied until he was found out.

However whilst it’s possible to strip someone of historic titles if caught doping, the problem at the moment with trans women atheletes winning medals and setting new world records for women, they are meeting the criteria set by IOC and sports. So even if the rules do get changed at a later date, they are not going to strip them of titles when they were technically not breaking the shitty rules set at the time. The damage to women’s records is already done in many sports. It’s depressing.

I thought, you could allow transwomen to compete in the male category with a commitment not to bully them or misgender them whilst the competition takes place. It also gets complicated if any of the medication they take affects their doping situation — i’ve no idea on this. As others said, though, it is quite possible that this issue has little to do with fairness in sports and more to do with a strange sort of territory-grabbing.

What like an open category anyone could enter?
Yes.
I understand a number of what are generally considered men's categories are in fact already open. If that's correct then I imagine little would need to change.
The only reason I can think of for objecting would be if the endgame was not inclusiveness but validation.

@Floisme

What like an open category anyone could enter? Yes. I understand a number of what are generally considered men's categories are in fact already open. If that's correct then I imagine little would need to change. The only reason I can think of for objecting would be if the endgame was not inclusiveness but validation.

It's already about validation not 'inclusiveness'

Inclusiveness = excluding women and girls. That much is already abundantly clear.

Completely agree

Yanbu, op. I confess I haven't rtft but surely no-one is defending this. The IOC have merrily decided they can just give women's sport away because of being 'inclusive'. They either sort this out now, or we risk a future where women's sport will be dominated by transwomen - because it won't be long before countries cotton on to the fact that this is great way to win medals.

For shame, IOC.

The parameters of having two categories would be:

Women’s - biological females only - including transmen/non-binary that have never taken testosterone

Open - all biological males regardless of gender identity plus transmen/non-binary who have taken testosterone at any point during transition

It's already about validation not 'inclusiveness
I would agree but at the moment the likes of the IOC and BBC are still able to hide behind talk of inclusiveness - I think open categories would take that away.

Equality doesn't mean equal treatment.

No one who is biologically male should be allowed to complete with biological females. It is not fair and sets a dangerous precedent.

@spotsoddsocks

I saw somewhere that Caitlyn Jenner, a trans women and athlete, said trans women shouldn't be competing in women's sports.

I agree with you op.

I think it's very telling that an Olympian transwoman can see the merits in maintained sex segregated sports.

That said, Caitlin is a raving republican so I suspect that's to pander to the extreme right wing in her party more than due to outrage at the obvious unfairness.

The IOC already know that a lot of men's sports are open categories and TW could compete within them.

They've decided the validation of a few men is more important than the whole of women's sport.

Once countries cotton on they can put men into the women's categories then they'll do so, until the women's category is basically men on estrogen competing against other men on estrogen and we'll have two men's categories.

The only consolation I will have is that when this happens it will be young men winning and those like Hubbard who pushed this through won't have a chance again.

Just look at 6ft 8", 52 year old Gabriella Ludwig TW who identifies as a woman, but not just a woman, no. She is apparently a teen/early twenties college girls basketball player. Formerly a mediocre male player, ex navy and assistant basketball coach who, despite owning a home nearby applied for and was granted housing in the college female dorms with young college women/girls. Somehow I cannot imagine a 52 year old mom who used to play sports in college, joining a college team 30 years later and moving in with the youngsters so why is a man doing it?

To prove he can. It's the power. Or the perversion.

Jesus Christ that's so sinister. Why was he allowed to do that? You know I'm thinking that even if the college girls were uncomfortable and tried to speak out, they would be labelled as unkind and bigoted. So they can't win.

As a PP said, why is it that they all seem to identify as young women/ girls? Given their age range, it would be more appropriate for them to identify as a post menopausal woman. But I guess that's not sexy enough.

Women over 40 are invisible or no longer useful to a sizeable percentage of men. Unless they do their washing and clean for them of course.

Yep even Eddie Izzard has 'girl mode' now rather than woman mode.

No one aspires to be a middle aged man. Not even females.

Males do aspire to middle age for the status.

Sorry that should read no one aspires to be a middle aged woman.

RedToothBrush

I enjoy being a middle aged woman! Lots of freedoms.