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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

663 replies

FloofyCushion · 27/07/2021 10:53

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/07/2021 12:10

Nicely divisive though.

Open up a discussion about a misogynistic term

Add a couple that would be used elsehere about women of colour

Get replies from pissed off BAME women being understandably annoyed that here we go again.

One odd one about white women weaponising tears - American park reference I am assuming - that was widely denounced here, by every poster. No idea what their age or ethnicity as everyone agreed the woman in question was unreasonable.

And then all that 'check your privilege' stuff.

And here we are again. Women. Divided!

Cheers!

Dutch1e · 27/07/2021 12:10

@cinammonbuns yes, agreed. I was more singing back-up vocals than trying to make a new point, hope it didn't come across like 'splaining.

Original poster
FloofyCushion · 27/07/2021 12:11

@SaskiaRembrandt I was referring to people on the thread saying that they had never heard the other names being used.

As I said in my op, I don't agree with Karen being used as an insult and throwing it around as a way to showcase your 'woke' credentials is a lazy attempt at social justice.

I was questioning whether it was actually misogynistic and why only that name and not the others. I had no idea it had roots in incel culture and that was interesting to learn.

OP posts:
Faithless12 · 27/07/2021 12:12

@Taoneusa

in the UK “shaniqua” has never even been heard of.
Not true. I’ve heard it. Karen only really made these shores in the last year Shaniqua was used at least while I was at school 20 years ago.

@Celandines the op and their friends might not use them, I’ve heard of things that I would never use. Such as derogatory names for a Chinese restaurant or Sikhs or people of Pakistani origins (although used based on perceived race and not their heritage at all). Your comment has proved the OP’s point in my mind.

UsedUpUsername · 27/07/2021 12:12

so while the term did originate in referring to white American women who were trying to se the law to harass black people it certainly has evolved

This is not the origin. It was used to pejoratively particularly on Reddit to describe a middle-aged woman who supposedly lorded it over service staff (then office Karen appeared ... and it went from there).

IAmNotAClownfish · 27/07/2021 12:13

It's another (bad) import from American culture due to the internet.

Most of these imports don't particularly fit well into other countries but get pushed into frequent usage due to forums and social media being majority American.

Notice how all these names are used to denigrate women? Give me an example for men... There's Chad I suppose (American again), any others?

cinammonbuns · 27/07/2021 12:14

And people are completely missing the point of this thread exactly. The OP is saying Karen is often said to be misogynistic whereas other words such as ‘Ling Long’ and ‘Shaniqua’ are seen as racist but not misogynistic. It has even been said by somebody I have replied to on this thread. Why is this?

I also wonder why this word has fostered so much outrage on MN when other issues that affect non white women are not even given a second glance.

P.S I don’t actually wonder why, I know why.

cinammonbuns · 27/07/2021 12:16

@CuriousaboutSamphire there has been plenty more than one incident like that though. A new one enters on social media literally every day.

Again the minimising of the amount of incidents whereby white owned lie and gaslight Jon white propel to get them in trouble is interesting.

I can link you several which have happened in just the last month if I thought you would bother to actually watch them.

cinammonbuns · 27/07/2021 12:17

@Dutch1e no I understand I was simply agreeing with you.

SaskiaRembrandt · 27/07/2021 12:20

I was questioning whether it was actually misogynistic and why only that name and not the others.

I think the others are equally misogynistic, after all, they're not directed at men, they are only used to silence women. I'm not even sure Karen is widely accepted as a misogynistic term, as this thread demonstrates plenty of people are okay with it. I also think there is a tendency for people to ignore intersectionality, and the fact that slurs and attacks on women can have elements of both. So, if a white woman is called Karen it's misogyny; if a black woman is called Shaniqua it's racism - although really she's being attacked both for being black and a woman.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 27/07/2021 12:21

@cinammonbuns

And people are completely missing the point of this thread exactly. The OP is saying Karen is often said to be misogynistic whereas other words such as ‘Ling Long’ and ‘Shaniqua’ are seen as racist but not misogynistic. It has even been said by somebody I have replied to on this thread. Why is this?

I also wonder why this word has fostered so much outrage on MN when other issues that affect non white women are not even given a second glance.

P.S I don’t actually wonder why, I know why.

Why is using Shaniqua as a slur not misogyny? What have I missed?
aSofaNearYou · 27/07/2021 12:22

@cinammonbuns

And people are completely missing the point of this thread exactly. The OP is saying Karen is often said to be misogynistic whereas other words such as ‘Ling Long’ and ‘Shaniqua’ are seen as racist but not misogynistic. It has even been said by somebody I have replied to on this thread. Why is this?

I also wonder why this word has fostered so much outrage on MN when other issues that affect non white women are not even given a second glance.

P.S I don’t actually wonder why, I know why.

I think given a second's thought it's obvious they're all misogynistic. I think the main reason there isn't equal outrage is mainly to do with how widespread they are in the UK/when they appeared. The only one of the three I have actually encountered is Shaniqua, and I haven't heard that used since I was in school. Karen emerged during a time where our society was supposedly focused on NOT being offensive, so it's natural it garnered more of a backclash. At the time I was hearing people say Shaniqua, they were also saying all kinds of offensive terms without being called out on it.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2021 12:22

It isn't misogynistic, it's a name given to entitled racist white American women who harass black people and think they can get away with it. That's how it originated.

That isn't actually how it originated. It started on Reddit, by men, and it wasn't about race.

Delphinia · 27/07/2021 12:23

It's very convenient for white racist, sexist males and their female supporters to have racism blamed on white, older, middle class women isn't it.

Spindless · 27/07/2021 12:27

I also wonder why this word has fostered so much outrage on MN when other issues that affect non white women are not even given a second glance.

I can talk and get outraged about what is in my sphere of experience as a white woman living in a predominantly white area with white friends. That’s the reality.

I’ve never heard the other names used but fail to see how they aren’t both racist and misogynistic.

Pastrydame · 27/07/2021 12:28

@Saidtoomuch

Anything that silences any woman, regardless of race, religion, nationality, class or age is wrong. Its nothing new- they used to shout witch and burn us; nag and humiliate us with a face shackle. I've never heard the other terms you mentioned in the UK but would be equally offended by them if they were used against other women. .
This
Porcupineintherough · 27/07/2021 12:28

@Delphinia

It's very convenient for white racist, sexist males and their female supporters to have racism blamed on white, older, middle class women isn't it.
From the videos of "Karens" I have seen on SM they are not necessarily middle-aged and they are most definitely not men.
KittenKong · 27/07/2021 12:29

I saw the WiSpa woman referred to as a Karen a few times.

It now just seems to means ‘shut up woman’

DeleteSystem32 · 27/07/2021 12:29

One odd one about white women weaponising tears - American park reference I am assuming - that was widely denounced here, by every poster. No idea what their age or ethnicity as everyone agreed the woman in question was unreasonable.

I seem to remember plenty posters defending her.

cinammonbuns · 27/07/2021 12:30

@Spindless

I also wonder why this word has fostered so much outrage on MN when other issues that affect non white women are not even given a second glance.

I can talk and get outraged about what is in my sphere of experience as a white woman living in a predominantly white area with white friends. That’s the reality.

I’ve never heard the other names used but fail to see how they aren’t both racist and misogynistic.

Finally some honesty.
znaika · 27/07/2021 12:30

You're usibg US racist tropes to have a go at women in the UK. When these UK women say they haven't really heard of this stuff coming from a totally different country thisis your gotcha moment as evidence of their racism.

How about stop stirring up shit for the sake of it and accusing uk women of us women's crimes

aSofaNearYou · 27/07/2021 12:32

From the videos of "Karens" I have seen on SM they are not necessarily middle-aged and they are most definitely not men.

That's the point though, you've seen them because "Karen" is a trend that people are interested in? Have you seen an equal number of videos about racist men? Is there a name for those men? Because I'd be prepared to bet the majority of racist crimes are committed by men.

cinammonbuns · 27/07/2021 12:32

@DeleteSystem32 agreed. @CuriousaboutSamphire you have a very selective memory. The everyone in bold is especially interesting when plenty defended her.

cinammonbuns · 27/07/2021 12:34

@znaika no one is using it as a gotcha moment for anything. We are simply pointing out that just because you have not heard of something doesn’t mean it exists. I have heard both Ling Ling and Shaniqua used in the U.K. by British people.

Meraas · 27/07/2021 12:34

@SaskiaRembrandt

Meraas How does denigrating another group of women help them? And I am talking about middle class white men in the UK. To give an example, sneering that one of the women who cleans their student flat is called Karen, then remarking that they're all Karens really. It's just members of an elite group belittling women they believe to be inferior. As has already been pointed out, it's misogyny dressed up as 'wokeness'.
You honestly can’t see why it’s empowering for a black/Hispanic/Asian person to record the person inflicting racist abuse on them and posting it on YouTube and sharing their experience of being targeted by a particular type of person known as a Karen?

Why do you get to decide what helps them?